Jennifer Miller & Jason Feifer, Authors of MR. NICE GUY
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[0:28]So welcome to Jennifer and Jason to Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
[0:32]Thanks for having us!
[0:33]Hi!
[0:34]I was just saying to them, this is like my first three some podcasts, which is so fitting
[0:37]since their whole book is like about sex.
[0:39]So, Mr. Nice Guy, your book was fantastic.
[0:43]I couldn't put it down.
[0:44]I read it all in like two days.
[0:45]Thank you so much.
[0:46]Thank you, yeah.
[0:47]It was really, really good.
[0:48]And I saw it on the book where people said, oh, it's a page-turner.
[0:52]And I'm like, is it really when people say that?
[0:53]But it really was.
[0:54]So I was delighted.
[0:55]Yeah, you know what's funny about that.
[0:58]We had the two blurs on the cover.
[1:00]I didn't realize until the book was actually published that they both say basically the same
[1:04]thing.
[1:05]And language, which is like, I couldn't put it down or whatever it is.
[1:08]It's really, it's very similar, which has an editor, it drives me crazy because I spent
[1:12]a lot of time taking out word repetitions, but there it is.
[1:15]Well, it hammered him the point.
[1:17]And then it lived up to it.
[1:19]Yeah.
[1:20]It would have been even worse had it not in this instance with the two quotes.
[1:24]So how did you come up with the idea for this book and just tell listeners generally
[1:27]what it's about?
[1:28]OK.
[1:29]So I'll explain what it's about.
[1:30]And then Jason can take it from there.
[1:32]So Mr. Nice Guy, it is a romantic comedy about two people who every week sleep together
[1:38]and then critically review each other's performance in a magazine.
[1:42]It's set in the world of New York magazine publishing, which is a world that Jason and I
[1:47]know very well.
[1:49]We've been magazine and newspaper writers for a really long time.
[1:54]And we really drew a lot from our experiences, kind of dating and also working in the city.
[1:59]We are now married.
[2:00]Just to make that clear.
[2:02]But Jason, do you want to talk about where the idea came from?
[2:05]Yeah.
[2:05]So the idea came from me in my 20s.
[2:09]I was probably the newspaper reporter at the time, community newspaper reporter and
[2:14]I got an email one day from this then internet famous sex columnist.
[2:18]She had just graduated college.
[2:19]She had people knew who she was back then.
[2:22]I don't think they do now.
[2:23]And I did.
[2:24]And she was just looking for freelance writing advice.
[2:26]She had seen my name show up in a number of publications.
[2:29]And I decided to reach out and I was very happy to be in touch with her.
[2:33]It was kind of cool.
[2:34]And so we traded emails for maybe about a year, totally professional emails, no sexy emails.
[2:39]But in doing that, the premise for this story just popped into my head, just being in
[2:45]touch with the sex columnist.
[2:46]So it's like, well, what would happen if two people each week suck together and then critically
[2:48]review each other's performance in a magazine.
[2:50]And I tried to write it over many years and couldn't because I'm really not a fiction
[2:55]writer.
[2:56]I'm a nonfiction writer.
[2:57]I'm a fan of magazines.
[2:59]And I try and I put it back on the shelf and I try and but over those years, I also kept
[3:04]telling people the premise and everyone just loved the premise, which encouraged me to
[3:07]keep trying when I met Jen and we started dating.
[3:09]I told her she encouraged me.
[3:12]Anyway, after many, many, many failures, Jen, we all got married.
[3:16]And then Jen sold her most recent novel, which is called the Heart You Care Home.
[3:18]She was looking for a new project and asked me what I thought she should do.
[3:22]And I said, just write my book, just write my book because I'm never going to do myself.
[3:26]And we both agree it's a great premise, so like, just do it.
[3:29]And she said, well, let's do it together.
[3:30]And that's why we jumped into this thing.
[3:32]That's awesome.
[3:33]Did you have any trouble working together?
[3:35]Was there any sticking point in plot or something or a big fight or?
[3:39]Well, so we kind of parcelled out the work kind of strategically to try to avoid that
[3:46]happening and to keep our marriage intact.
[3:49]I think working on a creative project with your significant other can be a risky move.
[3:55]So really, how we broke it down is that we plotted the book out together.
[3:59]And then Jason wrote all of the columns because the columns from the two protagonists,
[4:04]Lucas and Carmen are all in the book.
[4:06]He has a background as a columnist and editor of columns, so that worked well for him.
[4:11]And then because I have written previous novels, I wrote the majority of the narrative and
[4:16]the character development.
[4:17]So we really kind of had our separate roles and then we edited each other's work, which
[4:23]again, can be tricky when you're criticizing or critiquing the creative output of your spouse.
[4:29]But I think because we both have backgrounds and journalism and we're really used to
[4:33]being edited, we were able to kind of work through any differences that we had.
[4:40]And then of course there were the times in which I said, no, we're doing it this way.
[4:43]And then Jason just kind of gave up.
[4:45]There you go.
[4:46]That's the best way to resolve a fight.
[4:48]Yeah.
[4:49]Steam rolling.
[4:50]I like it.
[4:51]And so I found one of the big themes of the book was being an outsider.
[4:54]So Lucas, the protagonist, came from a small town, his boss, Jase, came from a small
[4:59]town in Kansas.
[5:00]I think it was one of the scenes at the end of the book was basically a room full of
[5:03]people from out of town.
[5:04]So I wanted to know what you guys thought about people coming into New York and basically
[5:09]trying to make it here.
[5:10]Do you feel like New York ever really does accept transplants like these people?
[5:15]Why do you think everybody has to come here to New York?
[5:17]Like can't they go to LA where it's so much prettier?
[5:19]Why here?
[5:20]Everything.
[5:21]Yeah.
[5:22]What do you think about that?
[5:23]Well, I feel like I suspect Jen and I may have so much different answers to this.
[5:26]I don't know.
[5:27]Should I go first?
[5:28]Yeah.
[5:29]All right.
[5:30]Well, it's worth noting for me that I prior to living in New York was in Boston.
[5:32]And I find that place to be actually far harder to be an outsider because most of the
[5:38]people who you encounter in Boston are from Boston.
[5:42]And their parents are from Boston and their grandparents are from Boston.
[5:45]And there's a real institutionalness to that place.
[5:49]But also there's a similarity of culture.
[5:51]Everybody is into the red socks and that place never felt like home to me.
[5:57]New York is very different.
[5:59]Almost nobody who you encounter, I mean, you know, among our set, right?
[6:03]Like if we were living in like the far reaches of Queens or something, everybody would
[6:07]have been there forever.
[6:08]But like, you know, whatever.
[6:09]We all like moved here for jobs or whatever.
[6:11]And that's our network.
[6:12]You're from here.
[6:13]You're from actually from here?
[6:14]I'm actually from here.
[6:15]Oh, you were the rare person.
[6:16]I mean, who's actually from here.
[6:17]So most of the people that I meet and interact with are not from here.
[6:21]And so the culture is very much of people who came here to kick butt.
[6:27]Like that is the reason they came here.
[6:29]I think that this is a difficult city to live in.
[6:32]It's a difficult city to afford to live in.
[6:35]And you are only going to do it if you have a mission.
[6:39]And that I think at least in our, in my community, in our community, that is what binds
[6:44]us all together.
[6:46]And also, you know, unlike Boston where there's one culture, there's one mindset, there's
[6:51]one interest set here.
[6:53]It fragmented in a million different places.
[6:55]I feel like it's actually quite easy to find your own community in New York because there
[7:00]is no one singular community.
[7:03]And so I think that what we were reflecting in the book was that this sense of outsiderness
[7:10]is absolutely as much as you make it for yourself.
[7:14]I think these characters were carrying around a burden that a lot of people feel when
[7:18]they come here, but it's not really about connecting and belonging to New York.
[7:24]It's collecting and belonging to the thing that all these very successful people who came
[7:29]and banded together have made into their own New York and like you want to be part of that.
[7:34]You want to be part of that little micro community, which frankly, nobody else cares about,
[7:39]right?
[7:41]We were just, I mean, this makes me think we were watching Amazon in the jungle.
[7:46]Wait, is that what it's called?
[7:47]Mozart in the jungle last night, which is about the New York Symphony.
[7:51]And, you know, it was all about kind of the power plays between the conductors and the
[7:58]composers.
[7:59]And Jason turned to me and he's like, you know, do you think this really happens in the
[8:03]classical music scene?
[8:05]I'm like, look at the writing scene.
[8:06]Like, yes, absolutely.
[8:08]Like, everybody is vying for their place.
[8:10]Everybody is trying to not just fit in, but to, you know, kind of solidify.
[8:16]Like, I'm here.
[8:17]I deserve to be here.
[8:19]I want to be successful here.
[8:21]And I think that's really what our characters are striving for.
[8:25]What I do think is interesting is that one of our protagonists, Carmen, who's the very
[8:29]seasoned and also fairly jaded sex columnist, she is also from New York.
[8:35]And I actually think that in her attempt to try to kind of be more professionally, she
[8:42]actually kind of loses herself a little bit.
[8:45]And her kind of narrative trajectory over the course of the book is kind of coming back
[8:49]to her roots as like, who am I as a person who's from this city and who, you know, shouldn't
[8:57]have to be fighting and scrambling to try to be successful because I was here before all
[9:02]of you.
[9:04]Have you thought about writing Carmen's story as the next book?
[9:08]Yeah.
[9:09]So that was one of the questions Jason the Zivi was wondering, like, you know, should
[9:12]the sequel to Mr. Nice Guy B from Carmen's POV?
[9:15]I mean, we haven't really thought about doing a sequel to this book.
[9:18]We actually have another rom-com in mind.
[9:21]I don't know.
[9:22]It's a great idea maybe to kind of go into her brain.
[9:26]But what's your new rom-com?
[9:27]Yeah.
[9:28]What's the new rom-com about?
[9:29]rom-com?
[9:30]We're thinking is about two political pundits on opposing sides who fall in love and kind
[9:38]of what happens.
[9:39]What is their public persona versus what happens behind the scenes?
[9:43]So that's, I think, looking like it's going to be our next joint project.
[9:47]Yeah.
[9:48]I feel like sadly in today's political environment, people on opposite sides could not
[9:51]even really date.
[9:52]Oh, sure.
[9:53]It happens very infrequent.
[9:54]Right.
[9:55]I feel like there's so much vitriol and sadly, but yeah.
[9:58]I mean, what interests me?
[10:00]about, I mean, what, like, Jen and I are motivated by, I think, somewhat different things
[10:03]in that project.
[10:04]The thing that really interests me is getting inside that world of pundits and people who
[10:10]are kind of, they're professionally angry, right?
[10:14]And because I am convinced, and we've had a couple conversations just as to start researching
[10:18]this book, I am convinced that these people are not, what you see is not real, right?
[10:22]They're actors, functionally.
[10:23]And then they go on to camera, and they all yell at each other, and then the cameras stop,
[10:28]and then they're all professional colleagues, right?
[10:31]And I think that's bad for everybody, because the people who receive that in their living
[10:35]rooms aren't really aware that they're watching a performance, but they are watching
[10:39]a performance.
[10:40]And I'm very, very interested in diving into that world and revealing that and coming
[10:45]to understand that better.
[10:46]Interesting.
[10:47]That sounds good fun.
[10:48]At least you're willing to write another book together, so that's a good one.
[10:50]Yeah, yeah, definitely.
[10:52]So your book also touches a lot about sort of the diminishing power of print media, which
[10:57]since you're both from the magazine world, I was interested to know your thoughts on,
[11:01]you know, I felt like every other page brought in another social media outlet or a Facebook
[11:05]live or, you know, this deal on Netflix, or it was just so sort of of the moment,
[11:10]like how people really are consuming media.
[11:13]And I was just wondering as, you know, newspaper and journalists and magazine writers,
[11:17]how do you feel about what's going on?
[11:20]And what do you think, like, the point of view is on this?
[11:23]And what did you want the book to sort of say about it?
[11:25]Sure.
[11:26]I think that what the book is really exploring is the transition between the old guard,
[11:33]like the Anna Windtors and the new guard, which are these young upstarts, these 20
[11:38]some things, like Lucas, our protagonist, who are coming in like really hungry to make
[11:44]it.
[11:45]And there's still this tension where the young upstarts who are, you know, terribly underpaid
[11:50]and, you know, treated not very well, are still having to play this game of trying
[11:56]to impress the people at the top, trying to kind of play into, or they find themselves,
[12:03]you know, becoming part of this cult of personality, which, you know, for decades has really
[12:08]driven the magazine industry.
[12:10]You've got these untouchable editors at the top who are just these larger than life personalities.
[12:15]Jason certainly has worked for some of them in his magazine career.
[12:20]Those people are starting to topple.
[12:22]I mean, simply because the magazine, the companies don't want to pay them the salaries that
[12:29]they've been paid.
[12:30]And so we're really at this interesting moment of transition where the old guard, like,
[12:35]is kind of has this like death grip and the young generation is like trying to scramble upwards
[12:41]and yet doesn't exactly have the resources to do that.
[12:45]And so, you know, I'm not sure if we're making like a specific point about like
[12:49]print media is dying.
[12:50]I mean, I have a thriving career right now, knock on wood, writing for the New York Times
[12:57]and the Washington Post magazine, you know, the post magazine has just completely rebooted
[13:02]their rates have gone up.
[13:04]I mean, really, really great, great stuff.
[13:06]So I'm not willing to say that, you know, print is dying, but there is definitely a new wave
[13:10]that's coming through and we wanted to explore that.
[13:12]Yeah, I mean, I feel, as I've worked as a magazine editor for the majority of my career,
[13:17]it does feel like room is falling.
[13:18]But I honestly don't mourn it.
[13:20]I mean, it sucks.
[13:21]A lot of people are going to lose their jobs and friends of mine who had dreams of spending
[13:26]their entire career as a magazine have had to rethink what it is that they do.
[13:30]But I always remind myself that a lot of these publications were created out of some
[13:37]economic opportunity, you know, and it's not like these are things that we all must have forever.
[13:44]Men's health where I used to work was a spin-off of prevention and it was there because
[13:49]Rodale at the time saw an opportunity to serve health content to men and that there was an advertising
[13:54]base for it.
[13:55]And so it was created and then it was created and then personalities developed and then there
[14:00]was a lot of money and a lot of those personalities were protected for a long time.
[14:04]And it became this institution where there's a lot of exclusivity and you want to be a part of it
[14:09]and there's influence and all that.
[14:10]And that's changing now because the economics of it are changing.
[14:13]And so to me, like, well, who cares if it goes away?
[14:17]Because the foundational necessity of it is not going away.
[14:20]There will be information communicated in some form.
[14:23]It just won't be in this form.
[14:24]And, you know, boo-hoo to the people who had a good run at the very top of it and made a lot of
[14:29]money and now they have to go do something else.
[14:31]I at once really appreciate everything that this industry has provided for me,
[14:35]but I want to be realistic about what's important.
[14:38]I just, you know, what that also makes me think in terms of, you know, Rome is falling.
[14:43]I mean, I think Jason, I think we in some ways, Mr. Nice Guy is, you know, it's our own
[14:48]little kind of hammer at the foundation because the book is really a satire of the media world
[14:55]and it's a satire of that excess of the cults of personality.
[14:58]I mean, just to give you one, so there's a lot in the book that Jason and I have drawn from
[15:03]our personal experiences working in media and like, really, we're trying to satirize.
[15:08]Like, just the absurdity of it and the excess of it.
[15:11]One small example is that when Jason was working at Men's Health, the editor-in-chief at the time
[15:17]had purchased a restaurant in the West Village and Jason, like, it wasn't ever explicitly said
[15:23]that the staff couldn't go out to eat there.
[15:26]But when I asked if we could go to eat there, Jason was like, no, no, no.
[15:30]Like, I can't be seen there without an invitation.
[15:33]You know, like, it would look really bad, right?
[15:34]And we put that right in the book because it's so ridiculous.
[15:38]Like, who is keeping a regular person out of a restaurant?
[15:41]You know?
[15:42]But that's actually like, that's not fiction.
[15:44]Right.
[15:44]That's reality.
[15:46]And it's absurd.
[15:47]So we wanted to kind of point that out and let everybody know how ridiculous it is.
[15:53]I interned at Vanity Fair during college.
[15:55]Oh, so I got a glimpse of the world myself back then and all the interns
[16:00]at the different content and S publications got together for this one seminar one day on,
[16:03]will the internet, you know, disrupt this industry?
[16:08]So that's dating out.
[16:09]You know, I'm obviously very old at this point.
[16:10]But anyway, it's sort of funny to see how it's all played out.
[16:13]But I also, I'm like a huge consumer of print media myself.
[16:17]And I'm a little bit more of a sentimentalist.
[16:19]I think that you are like, yeah, I'm not a sentimentalist about anything.
[16:21]Yeah.
[16:22]I get set like when stores close, I like cry.
[16:24]I'm like, you know, so I'm sort of sad for the brands that have been built over time.
[16:29]Yeah, but see, but the core thing that you love is not going to go away.
[16:33]It's just that the shape of it is changing.
[16:35]That's true.
[16:36]You know, so it's like, don't confuse like the thing of it with just the shape of it.
[16:40]Okay.
[16:40]Okay.
[16:41]All right.
[16:41]I feel properly steeled for the fall of Rome.
[16:45]So that was good.
[16:46]And also one more point about the fall of Rome.
[16:48]Yeah.
[16:48]We wouldn't be here today if Rome didn't fall.
[16:50]Like the fall of Rome was not the end of everything.
[16:53]It was just the end of one thing in the beginning of something else.
[16:55]Oh, so we're really talking about Rome now.
[16:57]I mean, now I'm literally talking about Rome.
[17:00]I'm switching.
[17:01]I'm switching gears.
[17:02]That was the actual.
[17:03]Yes.
[17:04]I got that.
[17:05]Thank you.
[17:06]All right.
[17:07]So let's go back to talking about sex in this book.
[17:10]So how do you, were you like blushing, writing these scenes?
[17:14]Some of them are like very, you know, telling like, did your parents read this book?
[17:18]Like kind of that whole thing.
[17:20]And there is something sort of cringe inducing and like you're doing it in a way.
[17:24]Yeah.
[17:25]I guess a big way.
[17:26]Yeah.
[17:27]So so Jason and I, the audio version of Mr. Nice guys available, they hired an actor to
[17:33]read the narrative, but Jason and I volunteered to read the columns and when we went
[17:39]in to read the columns, we hadn't looked at the book in a while.
[17:42]And we didn't.
[17:43]I think we just like weren't focusing on the fact that most of the sex takes place in
[17:47]the columns, which meant that basically for the audiobook, we are the pseudo born stars.
[17:53]Like that's what we have to do.
[17:55]And like as we were in the booth reading the lines, I mean, I would just had these horrible
[18:01]images of my parents listening, listening to this.
[18:04]I think it's really, I definitely had this experience like writing some of the sexual details.
[18:10]And I just want to be clear for listeners, like this is not 50 shades of gray.
[18:14]It's not a bodice ripper.
[18:16]This is, this is nothing heaves.
[18:18]Nothing heaves.
[18:19]This is not a romance novel.
[18:21]But they're sex and we definitely describe, you know, some of the interesting proclivities
[18:27]of the various characters.
[18:30]And yeah, it takes, I think it takes courage to actually put that stuff on the page
[18:36]because I know that when I'm writing that stuff, I'm thinking to myself, anyone reading
[18:41]this and especially anyone reading this who knows me is going to realize that this came
[18:45]out of my head.
[18:46]So like, even if this is something that like I'm not necessarily doing, like in my own
[18:52]relationship, like I still thought of it.
[18:55]And that's kind of embarrassing.
[18:58]My, I'm pretty sure my mom says she read it.
[19:01]I believe her like 85% my dad definitely didn't read it.
[19:06]Jason's parents read it.
[19:08]I mean, I can, Jason, I just think they wanted to talk about it.
[19:11]I mean, they want to talk about it.
[19:12]We're like, no thing.
[19:13]Let's not talk about it.
[19:15]Yeah, they're very supportive.
[19:16]I mean, Jen's parents are supportive too, but I guess have weaker stomachs.
[19:21]And so yeah, yeah, yeah, they read it.
[19:23]I mean, here's my, I mean, my, my sort of main thought on the, on the sex stuff in the
[19:27]book was that I did not want to write sex scenes where we were describing characters having
[19:35]sex because I think that that's very, very challenging.
[19:38]It's awkward as a writer.
[19:39]I think it's awkward as a reader.
[19:40]And I think it's almost impossible to do in a comfortable way.
[19:44]always reads like bad sex writing.
[19:45]And there is a award that is given out every year for the worst sex writing and we really
[19:49]didn't want to get that.
[19:51]So the solution was to have all the sex happen off screen.
[19:56]So you know, as you know, he's read the book.
[19:58]Well, it'll happen is that there'll be.
[20:00]The narrative, describing the characters,
[20:02]will move up to the moment where something really
[20:07]sexy is gonna happen and then cut.
[20:09]And the next thing, the way that you hear about it
[20:11]is in the columns at which point
[20:13]we're not describing the sex,
[20:15]we're having a character describe their own experience
[20:18]of the sex and that feels totally different.
[20:20]That feels more like somebody sitting at a bar
[20:22]telling you something than it does,
[20:24]like some writer trying to paint a sexy picture.
[20:28]It was a solution that made us both feel comfortable
[20:30]like getting into those kinds of scenes.
[20:32]Awesome.
[20:33]So I just wanted to ask,
[20:35]in the very beginning of the book,
[20:36]when Lucas unwittingly sort of finds himself
[20:39]in a sex column, not realizing he was going to be in one,
[20:42]which I don't think I'm giving anything away,
[20:43]that's like right in the beginning, right, okay.
[20:45]That sort of level of complete mortification,
[20:49]which you captured brilliantly.
[20:51]Have you guys personally, either of you felt that
[20:53]about anything that you're willing to share,
[20:55]has anything else, has anything made you feel like
[20:58]that terrible offhand?
[21:00]Ooh, would you, you gestured to me
[21:03]like I have a story that I was talking about?
[21:05]Well, no, just, you know, Jason in writing Carmen's perspective
[21:09]in the columns, Jason, you know,
[21:11]you've been very upfront about the fact
[21:13]that you're drawing from your own experience
[21:16]or in experience as a, you know, young 20 something
[21:20]and what women might have thought about you.
[21:22]So that's how Jason got into Carmen's head.
[21:25]So, you know, and you've described some mortifying things
[21:29]that have happened, not as mortifying as opening up
[21:33]the magazine that you work for and realizing
[21:35]that you have been torn to shreds
[21:37]by the magazine sex columnists,
[21:39]which is what happens to Lucas.
[21:41]But I do think that, you know,
[21:43]especially like, you know, we're both 38,
[21:46]we dated a lot, we, you know, got around
[21:50]to a certain extent, like everybody fumbles.
[21:54]Everybody has really awkward experiences,
[21:57]especially when like sexual experiences,
[21:59]especially when they're younger.
[22:01]And so I think it's just kind of honest
[22:04]like putting that stuff in.
[22:05]I mean, I'm not sure that anything that we wrote about
[22:08]in the book actually happened to us
[22:11]in terms of the sex.
[22:13]I don't know, Jason.
[22:15]It didn't even have to be in that context.
[22:17]Just that, just the healing of the mortification.
[22:19]Oh, okay.
[22:20]Yeah.
[22:23]I mean, I'm struck, I'm trying to think I am sure
[22:25]that I've had many times when I've been mortified.
[22:27]I mean, when I think about it,
[22:28]I think I like, I sort of flash back to very, very early,
[22:32]like things I did when I was 10
[22:33]that were extremely embarrassing.
[22:35]But now a little less so, but you know,
[22:38]but I've also, I've now learned that even if you do something
[22:43]that you're kind of embarrassed about,
[22:44]it kind of, it doesn't really stick, you know?
[22:47]Like it only sticks as much as you let it stick.
[22:49]So there have been times where even,
[22:51]I don't know, like even I'll be on a podcast
[22:54]or something and I'll, cause I get interviewed on,
[22:56]a lot cause usually cause of my job.
[22:59]And I will, something will just pop out of my mouth
[23:01]that afterwards, I'll be like, I was embarrassing
[23:04]that I said that or I said it in that way.
[23:05]What the hell are they talking about?
[23:06]But then I think, you know what?
[23:08]It probably wasn't, it probably didn't stick out
[23:10]for other people the way that it stuck out for me.
[23:12]And nobody else is gonna remember it except for me.
[23:15]So like if I keep it alive, then it is kept alive
[23:18]and if I forget it, then it is gone forever.
[23:20]And that's, so it's on me, it's on me.
[23:22]That's how I started to think of things.
[23:24]It's funny, a few people after I've done a podcast with them
[23:27]will send me an email and say, I really shouldn't have said,
[23:30]you know, did it sound really bad when I was said,
[23:32]blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, what, no?
[23:33]Yeah, and it's like it's totally fine.
[23:34]Yeah, it's totally fine.
[23:35]I didn't even, I didn't even occur to me
[23:37]to have an issue with it at all.
[23:39]So well, that's funny.
[23:40]So Jennifer, I really liked your essay,
[23:42]the Battle for Book Club's attention is more fierce
[23:44]than you can imagine, which you wrote ages ago on Book Riot.
[23:47]But you talked about all the challenges inherent
[23:50]in marketing a book and all the steps that you had taken
[23:52]to market your book, The Year of the Gadfly.
[23:54]I'm pronouncing that, right?
[23:55]So can you talk a little bit more about book marketing
[23:58]in general and how maybe you approach this one differently
[24:00]or what you incorporated from successful attempts
[24:03]from your previous books?
[24:05]Sure.
[24:06]So the first thing is that while writing a book
[24:09]with my husband who really loves the marketing
[24:12]was such a relief, Jason was basically the CMO
[24:16]of this project.
[24:17]I love doing the podcasts,
[24:19]but actually trying to like line them up
[24:22]and like get the publicity is, it's a hustle.
[24:26]It's like a serious hustle.
[24:27]And it's really, really hot.
[24:29]It's like emotionally difficult
[24:31]because I at least feel like I'm competing.
[24:34]I don't even know who I'm competing with.
[24:35]I guess other people whose books are coming out
[24:37]around the same time that mine is,
[24:39]but I'm not even sure.
[24:40]It's just that there's, you need to get attention.
[24:42]You need to get as much attention as you can.
[24:44]You need to try to like light that spark
[24:47]of like the word of mouth and like the flame
[24:49]that just like, you know, takes off
[24:51]and there's no science to it.
[24:53]So you just have to hustle
[24:55]and throw everything against the wall
[24:57]and see what sticks.
[24:58]So when I was marketing my debut novel,
[25:00]the year of the Gadfly,
[25:01]I came up with this ridiculous project
[25:03]to try to set a record for appearing
[25:06]at the most book clubs in a month.
[25:09]And I was gonna try to hit a hundred.
[25:11]I think I hit 76 book classes.
[25:15]And it was exhausting.
[25:16]And then of course, you know,
[25:17]I get an email from some other author
[25:19]who's like, you didn't hit the record.
[25:21]I hit the record.
[25:22]And I'm like, I'm like, okay.
[25:24]Let's seriously like,
[25:27]we're both just trying to get our book out there.
[25:29]Like, we don't take this so seriously, you know?
[25:32]So yeah, I think that's something that like,
[25:35]if people outside of the publishing world
[25:37]like don't really realize how much work
[25:40]the author, you know,
[25:41]him or herself has to do to try to get the book out there.
[25:45]I mean, the reason that we are on this podcast right now
[25:48]is that I was doing a ton of research
[25:51]to figure out what podcasts we might possibly be able to go on.
[25:55]And I contacted you and, you know,
[25:58]the publisher didn't have anything to do with that.
[26:00]And most of the press we've gotten,
[26:02]most of the podcasts that we've gone on,
[26:04]that has all been from under our own steam.
[26:08]It's basically become a full-time job
[26:11]for both of us who have full-time jobs.
[26:14]So, you know, it's like a whole other facet of the book
[26:18]as if writing the book isn't hard enough.
[26:20]You then have to really kind of go on the,
[26:23]it's like a being a politician
[26:25]and having to try to persuade everyone
[26:27]why they should pick it up.
[26:29]The last few people, I feel like I've asked him,
[26:31]said like, well, what are you working on now?
[26:32]And they're like, well, I'm doing this publicity now.
[26:34]Like, this is what I'm doing.
[26:35]This is it.
[26:36]This is, I can't work on anything right now, so.
[26:38]Yeah, it's extremely time consuming.
[26:40]It really, like, Jenna has more flexibility
[26:43]because she's freelance,
[26:46]but I have an office job and it has been a disaster for me.
[26:49]Like, she has an absolute disaster.
[26:51]And you're literally running entrepreneur magazine right now.
[26:53]Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[26:54]And still sneaking away and interviewing
[26:56]and doing all these other things.
[26:57]Yes, I know, right, yes.
[26:59]Sneaking away sometimes is for real.
[27:00]Yeah, I mean, right.
[27:01]Like, yeah, we're like, I'm like looking at the time here
[27:03]because we saw her because I know,
[27:05]because I know, but I just know the rest of my day, right?
[27:07]Like, it's very challenging,
[27:08]but you just have to prioritize it.
[27:10]This is important to me and it's important to us.
[27:12]And so I've been, it's like to me,
[27:15]it's like, all right, well, do I do a couple of podcasts one day
[27:18]and then just stay up till 11 30
[27:20]dealing with entrepreneur stuff that I'm not gonna be able
[27:22]to get to?
[27:22]Yes, because that's worth it.
[27:24]And so I haven't pushed myself to the point
[27:27]where anything has failed, right?
[27:29]But it is just required a tremendous amount of time shifting
[27:32]and sacrificing of other things.
[27:33]Do you have any parting advice to aspiring authors,
[27:36]either of you out there?
[27:38]Absolutely.
[27:39]And I would say that writing a book and getting published,
[27:42]it's a marathon and you just have to commit to the marathon.
[27:45]I mean, for Mr. Nice Guy, Jason and I,
[27:48]we wrote a draft of the book.
[27:49]We actually sent it out to a bunch of agents
[27:52]and got a bunch of rejections,
[27:54]but we got some good feedback.
[27:56]And we were able to take that feedback and redo.
[28:01]We actually rewrote the final third of the novel
[28:04]and that took an extra year, basically.
[28:07]And then once we had done that,
[28:09]then we were able to get an agent
[28:10]and then we were able to sell the book.
[28:13]And I have had an experience that is similar to that
[28:16]in my other books as well.
[28:18]I mean, my debut novel took seven years.
[28:20]Oh my goodness.
[28:21]And yeah, I mean, and the protagonist of the finished product
[28:26]didn't even exist in the first draft.
[28:28]So I think you've just gotta be willing
[28:31]to be open to feedback and to not get discouraged
[28:35]after two, three, four years even
[28:38]if you're not getting the traction you want
[28:40]because it is possible.
[28:43]You've just gotta stick with it.
[28:44]Yeah, yeah, I mean, it says yes, yes, I agree.
[28:48]Okay, great.
[28:50]I will thank you guys for coming on.
[28:51]Mom, so I have time to read books
[28:52]and I really wish you best to like not just with the success
[28:55]of the book, but with the focusing on the publicity of it
[28:58]and managing all that in addition to real life.
[29:01]Thanks.
[29:02]Thank you.
[29:03]Actually, can I ask, I'm gonna add one thing.
[29:05]Yes, please.
[29:06]Your hand over.
[29:07]No, no, stop.
[29:08]Make us to hear from your clients.
[29:09]No, no, no, no, no, I didn't mean
[29:10]looking at the clock or I should wrap it up.
[29:12]I just meant like I am always, always thinking
[29:14]about what's coming next.
[29:15]I have to, you know.
[29:16]So yeah, what did I want to say?
[29:17]I wanted to say that these are good problems to have.
[29:20]That's what I wanted to say.
[29:21]You know, like it's you should not look at the challenges
[29:24]of it as like a burden.
[29:26]You look at it as the challenges because isn't it
[29:29]wonderful that you are creating a situation
[29:31]which you have those challenges?
[29:32]Like how awesome.
[29:33]Is it that we had two thirds of a great book
[29:36]and there were a bunch of people who were like,
[29:38]that's really good, but you need to rewrite the last third.
[29:40]That's a great situation.
[29:41]Totally.
[29:42]You know, that's a great thing.
[29:43]That's a great thing.
[29:44]Yeah, thank you.
[29:45]It's like great.
[29:46]We're almost, we're like two thirds of the way there.
[29:47]Fantastic.
[29:48]And the same thing with, you know,
[29:49]it's like boo-hoo that I have to move around my day
[29:52]like because I would, I would much rather be here
[29:57]talking about this book with you
[29:58]than like not have a book
[30:00]Talk about it and just have my day be the normal day,
[30:03]like normal days suck,
[30:05]normal days, like nobody should live for normal days.
[30:07]You guys love my normal day.
[30:09]No, no, normal days are terrible.
[30:10]Like don't leave for normal days
[30:12]who live for the abnormal days
[30:13]because the abnormal day is when great things are happening.
[30:15]I love that.
[30:16]Awesome.
[30:17]There it is.
[30:18]Of course, to no more normal days.
[30:19]Yes, thanks a lot.
[30:20]Thank you.
[30:21]Bye, bye.
[30:22]This episode has been sponsored by Bookhampton, Bookhampton.com.
[30:26]Thanks to Ryan and Steve at Texture Sound
[30:28]for the audio editing and mixing.
[30:30]Thanks for listening to Momstone.
[30:31]Have time to read books.