Molly Flatt, Author of THE CHARMED LIFE OF ALEX MOORE
[0:00]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, and this is Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:12]This episode of Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books has been sponsored by Nini's Treats
[0:16]and E-N-E-S Treats, Nini's Treats.com, an amazing, family-owned and operated crumb cake
[0:22]business based in Charleston, South Carolina.
[0:25]You can buy their delicious crumb cakes at niniestreats.com or on goldbelly.com.
[0:30]Niniestreats, you won't leave a crumb.
[0:32]Hi, listeners.
[0:33]First, I just want to thank you all so much for listening to my podcast.
[0:37]I see the numbers and I know you all are out there, but I don't know anything about
[0:40]you or who you are or what you like or what you don't like.
[0:43]My email is zibbyatzibbyowens.com or you can reach me through my website zibbyowens.com through
[0:50]Instagram or Twitter at zibbyowens.
[0:53]I would love to hear from you guys and just to know what's working, what's not working,
[0:58]what could I do better?
[0:59]Are you all moms?
[1:00]Are you not moms?
[1:01]I don't know.
[1:02]I'd love to hear from you.
[1:03]For making this a top 40 podcast and I couldn't do it without all of you.
[1:08]And I just want to know who you are out there.
[1:10]Thanks so much again for listening and thanks for reaching out.
[1:13]I'm thrilled to welcome Molly Flat here today.
[1:16]Molly is the author of the novel The Charmed Life of Alex Moore.
[1:20]She's a journalist and author who writes about the way technology changes the way we
[1:24]think, work, and live.
[1:25]She's the Associate Editor of Future Book and writes about technology publishing and culture
[1:29]for the BBC, the Guardian, and other publications.
[1:33]She contributed a story entitled A Darker Wave to the science fiction anthology Women
[1:37]Advent the Future and she currently lives in the UK.
[1:39]Welcome Molly.
[1:40]Thank you so much.
[1:41]It's lovely to be with you sort of.
[1:44]Molly and I were introduced by Jeff Norton, who was on the podcast last week.
[1:49]So it's nice to finally get to chat.
[1:51]Yeah, it's lovely to be connected.
[1:53]So Molly, I started reading all the essays that you've published that you have on your website.
[1:58]One of which is called What It's Like to Have a Baby in Zone One.
[2:02]And I was so surprised to find out that your husband delivered your baby in your freezing
[2:08]cold bathroom with a cell phone operator on the floor and tell you have to tell me the
[2:13]story.
[2:14]I was a need.
[2:15]Almost think we did it just so I could get anything standard article.
[2:18]I mean, it did to be honest.
[2:21]That's one of the few conversations that made for a really good story.
[2:26]The fact story is that I had decided that I wanted a home birth.
[2:30]This was only a couple of weeks before my daughter was due back in 2016.
[2:36]And so, you know, but obviously was planning on having some midwives there.
[2:40]So we were hooked up with NHS kind of local midwives team.
[2:43]We hooked into a local community birthing pool scheme.
[2:48]So, you know, we had this kind of deflated birthing pool sitting in the corner of our lounge
[2:52]and the plan was that when the time came, it kind of inflated to put it up somehow
[2:56]in our tiny, tiny latch.
[2:58]But basically, long story short, I was really stubborn.
[3:02]I do have a high pain threshold, but I decided that my daughter was going to be late because
[3:07]my sister's the child's late.
[3:10]And, you know, by that point in your presence, you're getting all kinds of pains and
[3:14]discomfort and weird feelings.
[3:17]So, you know, in retrospect, when I was sitting in a cafe having a green smoothie, taking
[3:26]parasetinal and thinking, oh, it's really uncomfortable.
[3:30]I was about, you know, five, ten, two, three, two, five, six.
[3:34]Well, it didn't help that my daughter didn't break right until the end, so, you know, when
[3:38]we definitely knew something was happening, we were in contact with the home birth midwives
[3:43]team.
[3:44]And going, you know, oh, is it your first baby, you know, that obviously a quite wary
[3:49]of overreacting new mothers and, you know, having a water spoken and like, no, so, by
[3:55]the time that basically my husband could see the head, they realized it weren't going to
[4:01]get there in time.
[4:02]So, he phoned to ambulance, but unfortunately, there was a far-bore in-harkly where we live
[4:10]and all the ambulances were tied up.
[4:12]So, basically, I mean, he had the 999 call handler on the mobile, popped on the bar, and
[4:19]I crawled to the door, and the call had to talk to Yanny through it, and, you know, he
[4:24]was super, super lucky, actually, my daughter just kind of had to come out without any
[4:29]complications.
[4:30]Greened as soon as she kind of got above the water, and then we were alone for about 15
[4:35]minutes of love, but Andy was too finely arrived and tried to find a way for a hot block.
[4:40]Oh, my goodness.
[4:41]The way you ruined it was so funny, not that it wasn't funny now, too, but the article
[4:46]was just hilarious.
[4:48]I couldn't believe it.
[4:49]So, sorry for starting off with something just intensely personal, but I had to find out
[4:54]more about it.
[4:55]I'm glad you're in.
[4:56]It's fine.
[4:57]I've got enough of that story.
[4:58]You know, you also talked to a lot in that article about how you thought you would move
[5:03]out to the suburbs, sort of like your sister, who has two kids, and you wrote, they're
[5:07]now walking their rescue mud through wildflower meadows and crafting with salvage wood.
[5:11]And he said, you thought you would end up there, but then once when push came to show
[5:16]of you, we're excited just to stay in London.
[5:19]So what do you think that was about?
[5:20]Can you share what it's like to sort of rethink what you thought your adulthood would
[5:24]look like?
[5:25]And then when it comes down to it, you want to do something different?
[5:27]Yeah, you know, this is so tiny, because we're actually clearing out and selling my
[5:30]kind of child-to-house.
[5:31]The moment the house had grew up in, in the countryside, so it's stirring up all kinds
[5:36]of memories and comparison of kind of what my childhood was like as this, you know,
[5:42]in rural Oxfordshire, I was just cute, you know, kind of then got dressed and just spent
[5:47]all day running about by herself in the field in the 90s.
[5:51]And yeah, my sister's now forested, so she's very much took that side of herself and kept
[5:56]it going.
[5:57]And, you know, that was so part of my creative growing up and my identity, but I, yeah, it
[6:06]was, I think, it's very tempting, but impossible to recreate your own childhood.
[6:10]And I think, you know, that was just a rural childhood, that was a rural eight-piece childhood.
[6:14]And, you know, nowadays when I let my girls run around by herself, if you still live
[6:19]these fields, you know, all day, you know, probably not.
[6:23]And I think, you know, when it came to having my daughter and fighting out the other
[6:27]pregnant, we, you know, we were tempted to do the massive life change, but we also realized
[6:33]that it would probably be a really good thing to, you know, let that be the massive
[6:38]life change rather than throw everything in our lives up in the air.
[6:41]But, you know, we ended up staying in our little flat in London.
[6:45]And I love it.
[6:46]I love it.
[6:47]I mean, it does help that my mom still is in the countryside.
[6:50]And so, you know, really regularly, I go and spend with Ken to get that country fit, you
[6:55]know, my daughter would get muddy and it would work and run around and have that space.
[6:59]But, I must say as a mom living right in the centre of London, it really allows me to juggle
[7:05]the different sizes myself in a way that I think would be really, really hard if I was
[7:10]somewhere more isolated.
[7:11]So, you know, I've got an incredible nursery, just a few minutes walk from our flat,
[7:16]the GP's surgery to cross the park, you know, I spend on days when I look after my daughter
[7:22]and she's not a nursery, we've got, you know, if you can spend all day at the natural history,
[7:26]you can see in the three times we'd be able to work your amazing park, you know, I can
[7:31]still work, I can still, you know, last night we were out to the ballet, a lot for how,
[7:36]you know, I feel like I'm really loyal, actually.
[7:40]So, yeah, it's worked out well in the end.
[7:44]That's great.
[7:45]I know I felt like I could relate when you were talking about all the different things
[7:48]you do in London.
[7:49]I was like, I don't even do all that stuff in New York and I'm just like sitting here.
[7:51]Do you know what I mean?
[7:53]Why do I get the ballet like, I don't do any of that stuff.
[7:56]Oh my God, I mean, 50 not to idealize it, right?
[7:59]So, that's like, that's like the journalist version, that's the Instagram version.
[8:04]You know, any sort of power is being real or other, you know, it's like, of course,
[8:10]there are days also when I'm like, her lungs and she goes to the, from the saturation,
[8:16]the pollution in the air around here, you know, there's some drug addict, you know,
[8:21]on the corner of the street, like an outfit that are flat, you know, mumbling stuff and
[8:26]throwing things, you know, there's been night time, there's the terrorism, there's a, you
[8:31]know, and there's just a rubbish day where you feel like an awful mother and there being
[8:35]an absolute eight-hole, and, you know, it's stressful and horrible, but, you know,
[8:40]I feel like patients are really going to change the bad days.
[8:44]And so, yeah, I'm generally trying to be a few proposals to think of, so I try and paint
[8:48]the picture of my head, but this is the life I want to live and a little bit of self-delusion
[8:53]can go a long way.
[8:54]I guess I love that.
[8:57]You wrote this other amazing article for the pool, which was called, How Writing Taught
[9:01]Me to Let Go, and finally, Except My Flaws, which I loved.
[9:05]I loved, loved, loved it, shared it on social, like, everybody should write this article.
[9:09]And it was really about what you had to give up to start and finish writing a great novel,
[9:14]which became the Charmed Life of Alex Moore.
[9:16]You had to give up sort of your salary as a, you know, social media marketer, your relentless
[9:22]need to self-edit, your perfectionism.
[9:24]You described your earlier days working in the tech industry as, quote, days spent high
[9:29]on groupthink and vitamin water.
[9:31]My nights spent alone in hotel rooms, lovingly tending to my social feeds.
[9:35]Well, my stomach ached, which I thought that was such a brilliant description.
[9:39]And you contrast that to writing 100,000 words again and again.
[9:45]And what you wrote at the end was so great, you wrote, Perfection is a form of hiding.
[9:49]It's a way of shutting your true, weird, complicated self-away in a shiny air-conditioned
[9:53]car.
[9:54]It can feel like a refuge, but it's also a prison.
[9:57]And one day, however diligently you drive it, it will crash.
[10:00]So get out of the car, kick, scream, and cry on all available shoulders, then find something
[10:05]to do that matters to you and get the hell on with it with all your terrified heart.
[10:08]I'm like, all right, I'm going, I can't wait, I'm so good in your house that you
[10:15]make, that's how I'm ready for an ethical and I think I need an audio version of all
[10:19]my ethical is read out by city of it.
[10:22]You're so cool and American at all.
[10:24]I feel like everything sounds cooler in a British accent.
[10:27]I feel like a British accent alone makes you sound 50 times smarter than anybody else,
[10:31]but for things, nice to know it goes for those.
[10:35]So tell me more about this process of writing a novel and what you had to go through
[10:39]sort of emotionally to let yourself really feel and write.
[10:42]Oh, isn't it an article that's slightly different with normally as a journalist or
[10:49]the copywriter or other sort of writing that I do, you know, you're imparting facts, you've
[10:54]got an aim, you've got a kind of angle where, you know, I think for me, you know, novels
[11:00]are about your truth, you know, you're not going to commit to writing something that
[11:04]long and that challenging and that person up unless you really have something you want
[11:09]to say, you're going to try and explore, you know, ambiguity as well.
[11:13]I think that's not novel.
[11:14]It's so great out there.
[11:15]The great real life, which means not black and white, which is what a lot of media and
[11:20]journalism comes down to, a great at the messy, weird, gray areas of feeling and relationship.
[11:28]And that stuff we tend to try and avoid in our lives.
[11:30]We try and make everything downread and clear and clean and Instagram friendly.
[11:36]And so, yeah, I had to kind of relearn how to, I mean, can't even have to think because,
[11:42]you know, I've been a digital marketer and a writer, a kind of journalism for a long time.
[11:47]So learning how to think in that more architectural, long form way, it was quite hard.
[11:53]But yeah, also how to see, I mean, it was part of me growing up really.
[11:57]I don't think I could have ever written a novel before I did, seeing I completed the
[12:01]manuscript.
[12:02]But two years ago or so, when I was 33, 34, so that's, you know, I think I really needed
[12:09]that time to know what I wanted to pay in the way I was, but yeah, I was just trying to
[12:14]be vulnerable if that makes sense in any way.
[12:17]And the courage to kind of put out there, because that's a terrifying thing about not
[12:21]we were putting out there.
[12:22]You know, here's what I think is true about the world.
[12:24]Here's what I think has been interesting about the world.
[12:27]Here's how I see things, here's what I think is funny, here's what I think is surprising.
[12:32]And you know, you're kind of going, am I a topore free?
[12:35]Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please anyone, which feels very
[12:38]amazing.
[12:39]And so, yeah, I had the really seminal meeting with a woman I had only met once before.
[12:46]She asked to see me because she read an article of mine, and this was back when I was
[12:50]really kind of working on the manuscript, and it didn't need to do another 100,000 words,
[12:54]and you know, I wasn't quite making it work.
[12:56]And she said something to me about, I really like that article, and you know, I'm excited
[13:00]to see a novel, because if you can have the emotional freedom that you had in that article
[13:06]with your novel, then, you know, I think I'm in love with it.
[13:09]And it was a moment where I went, oh, oh, could that be, you know, could I have the plot
[13:15]out and smart character, how I could have the plot, you know, I have the kind of concept
[13:19]behind the book.
[13:20]But that really unlocked me, I realized that if I was going to finish the book and make
[13:25]it into what I wanted it to be, I needed to really give in and go there with the emotions
[13:30]and have that emotional freedom.
[13:31]And if there's anything that screws up in perfect, it's emotions.
[13:36]Yes.
[13:37]Yeah.
[13:38]It was one of those amazing, serendipitous conversations that were just the right place,
[13:43]the right time, and that really unlocked the key of it for me.
[13:46]And then that's where the real hard work started.
[13:49]And you wrote somewhere else that it took you 15 years to end up writing the whole book.
[13:54]Is that true?
[13:55]Oh, I mean, that was, I think that was when I wrote that, I was talking about the
[13:59]concept at the heart of the book.
[14:01]Okay.
[14:02]I had been so reliably, which will be something to you, but probably won't need a lot
[14:07]to do anyone listening to this.
[14:09]But if you read the book, you'll know what I mean.
[14:11]The concept of the library had been, I don't know how it came from.
[14:14]It had just been in my head for ages and ages and ages.
[14:16]So that's kind of the 16 year book.
[14:18]I mean, in terms of writing, it still took me a good seven years to write a thing.
[14:24]And again, that was doing with a whole draft that then got deleted.
[14:29]And I started going to go out and things like that.
[14:32]And I'm kind of hoping that was a debut novel thing.
[14:35]And that was because I was figuring out so much about myself as well as, you know, how to write the book.
[14:41]The book done it.
[14:42]You have no idea how that happens.
[14:44]And if it's not going to take me seven years to write all of my future books.
[14:48]But yes, it was certainly a long haul of this book.
[14:51]And can you tell listeners what your book is about?
[14:54]And then how you came up with the idea, not just for the library,
[14:57]but the whole idea, the whole plot.
[14:59]How did you come up with it?
[15:00]And what was it about?
[15:01]OK.
[15:02]Well, you'd think I would have this down part now that it was published in May.
[15:06]We're putting together the marketing for the paper about next February.
[15:09]You'd think, clearly, that I would have a really good pitch.
[15:12]You don't have to.
[15:13]I could try.
[15:14]I don't know.
[15:15]No.
[15:16]I think the closest, what I really love is the way my agent told it to my editor.
[15:20]And she says, this book is Bridget Jones meets the matrix.
[15:24]Where is it?
[15:26]It's kind of a marriage.
[15:27]And of course when I first heard it, I was like,
[15:29]I mean, the matrix amazing.
[15:30]I'm a master fan of William Gibson.
[15:32]Bridget Jones does a bit like, oh, God.
[15:34]What?
[15:35]I'm calm.
[15:36]And it's not even though I love reading Bridget Jones.
[15:39]I'm calm.
[15:41]But actually, I think it's a smart way of putting it.
[15:43]Because what that does is it juxtaposes two things.
[15:45]So there's an absolutely element in my book called, you know,
[15:48]a heroin journey through job and relationship.
[15:52]And that's with the slightly kind of speculative element
[15:57]of the matrix and a bit of a tech element.
[15:59]But when you put those two things together,
[16:01]you really have no idea how they work together
[16:03]and what's going to come out of it.
[16:04]Which I think is the amount my book has.
[16:06]I mean, the one key note I get again and again is,
[16:09]I've read nothing like this.
[16:10]Which is awesome.
[16:12]And that, that for me is the real component and very cool.
[16:16]Doesn't make it the easiest thing to mark it.
[16:18]Yeah.
[16:19]So I mean, in more name and terms I suppose,
[16:21]it is basically about a 31 year old woman living in London
[16:26]has talked up clean.
[16:28]For whom six months ago,
[16:30]everything in her life suddenly went right.
[16:32]So she needs to be, you know, just crazy and long in life.
[16:36]She's fine.
[16:37]But nothing was exciting.
[16:39]Not really fulfilling that.
[16:40]It's essential.
[16:41]You know, instead of job spending that evening,
[16:44]like eating ready meals and watching,
[16:46]box that, you know,
[16:48]just kind of feeling her use and have the potential kind of
[16:51]sliding away.
[16:52]And then six months before the novel starts,
[16:54]something like she finally found this startup
[16:59]that she had this amazing idea for.
[17:01]She kind of becomes the taste of the town.
[17:04]She, you know, starts kind of based off of new friends.
[17:07]She's a part of her magazine.
[17:09]But as the novel goes along,
[17:11]of course, you realize that a change doesn't really work like that.
[17:16]And it's something happened a month ago.
[17:18]It's a make all this happen.
[17:20]And it connected to this island in the Auckland island,
[17:24]so that's from the fine north.
[17:26]You would be the real island of the north of Scotland.
[17:28]Other officials invited there on the fence
[17:31]to be scheduled your research project.
[17:33]But as soon as she's there,
[17:34]she kind of discovers that there's a big secret
[17:37]given on the island.
[17:39]Her success is kind of mocked up,
[17:42]and that her success has been caused by.
[17:44]And she has to kind of go on it.
[17:46]So it's kind of a decades story.
[17:48]She has to go ahead and tell you a story about herself
[17:51]and about what told in her back before this happened
[17:54]and how she's managed to kind of free herself from all her own
[17:57]self-limiting balloons.
[17:59]I think you did a good job there.
[18:00]That was pretty good.
[18:01]I'm excited.
[18:02]I'm really excited.
[18:03]Yeah.
[18:04]You could take that take that on the road.
[18:06]You know, one of the things that I found really interesting about
[18:08]your book was how when Alex was basically reinventing
[18:11]herself as this, you know, text star, her fiance and her family
[18:15]and feel like she's basically changing too much.
[18:17]Like she isn't herself enough.
[18:19]And her fiance takes a lot of a lot of offense when he
[18:22]overhears another colleague saying that Alex had described
[18:25]her life before she saw the proverbial entrepreneurial
[18:29]light as her being a, quote, dead-eyed desk monkey about
[18:33]to become a baby machine and that she had escaped the life of
[18:37]terrible mediocrity.
[18:38]But that was their life together.
[18:40]So he's not too happy about that description.
[18:43]He thought it was kind of fine.
[18:44]Do you think this is common basically when one spouse kind of
[18:48]tries on a new identity and leaves the other behind?
[18:51]Like has this happened to you or did you see this in a friend's
[18:54]relationship?
[18:55]How did you come up with this?
[18:56]Yeah, so I mean, I think there are a couple of things that
[18:59]unpicked it.
[19:00]One is absolutely.
[19:01]I think a lot of people think they're really terrified of
[19:05]failure when actually what's much more scary is success.
[19:09]So one thing that really interested me is, you know, friends who
[19:13]I know, and myself as well, you know, friends I know are
[19:17]super talented, super smart.
[19:20]Could do anything they wanted.
[19:22]I've never quite found their mojo.
[19:25]What was dissatisfied?
[19:27]Always, you know, kind of doing something that was okay, but
[19:30]that didn't really fit a spirit alike.
[19:32]It always felt they could do better.
[19:33]And I was just so interested in what's the breaking point?
[19:38]What makes people, you know, what distinguishes people who
[19:42]push from people who don't?
[19:43]And, you know, obviously sometimes it appears that from
[19:45]stances, you know, what is that thing that some people see
[19:50]liberated from to just go out there and fight for whatever, you
[19:55]know, their dream is?
[19:56]So, you know, in myself, I know this thing about it.
[20:00]So much easier to want to keep your head below the parapet and to not try.
[20:04]It seems like a sort of arabid trying for your full potential or trying for brilliant
[20:11]total aim for just like, you know, not terrible.
[20:14]It's, you know, and I think that's quite a British thing as well.
[20:17]It's the fear of as fighting to the top,
[20:21]the minute it feels very high for and it's quite embarrassing.
[20:24]So, you know, I think, yeah, a lot of people are more afraid to push yourself out there
[20:29]if you're not a victim and if you're trying, if you're trying with your whole heart,
[20:33]then it puts in a very vulnerable position and actually the consequences of getting what you want to
[20:38]like can be more scary than being someone who's always fighting for it.
[20:42]You know, because then you have to ask, what next?
[20:44]And in fact, do I really want it?
[20:47]And I think, you know, that takes me to the second point about that kind of sentiment
[20:50]in that theme that you read out without lying.
[20:53]You know, I am always, I think, again, exploring these gray areas with the book.
[20:59]So, that comment is partly, of course, a comment on, you know,
[21:04]the sadness of people settling for something that feels, you know, not quite as amazing as it could be.
[21:10]But it's also a bit of a critique of how much we should fetishise leadership and amazingness.
[21:17]And actually, you know, having an okay job that allows you to go home
[21:23]5 p.m. and see your kids, which is getting like that.
[21:26]It can be amazing too.
[21:28]That could be a totally different form of success.
[21:31]You know, success is not always about being.
[21:34]Just lifting Instagram friendly entrepreneur, who's flashing it,
[21:38]and he's a lady boss, and actually it can be being a follower, not a leader.
[21:42]It can be being someone who has different priorities and different values,
[21:46]unless they're like differently.
[21:47]So, I think, you know, I'm always trying with this book to question both by,
[21:53]to say, absolutely don't settle and try and pull apart the things that are holding you back.
[21:58]But at the same time, don't forget to question what you really want,
[22:03]because once you get there, you know, you might realise that you've been chasing a dream
[22:07]that someone else has sat that's a fake dream or a media dream.
[22:11]Or indeed, you know, there are different values and different kinds of brilliance
[22:15]other than the obvious or the flashy one.
[22:18]And do you think that's why her mom, Alex's mom, also,
[22:22]sort of pushed back against her success when she said,
[22:24]you know, I just wonder if you're going about it all a little wholeheartedly.
[22:28]Like, do you feel like the people closest to you are the ones who are most
[22:33]rattled or affected by the change?
[22:36]Like, they don't know what to do with it in a way?
[22:38]Yeah, I mean, I think as a mom, I can kind of see this part in that fear,
[22:43]where of course you want your children to fulfill their potential,
[22:46]but you also want to protect them.
[22:48]So again, like I was saying, you know, that putting your head above the power,
[22:51]like that throwing your whole heart into anything, you know, that's kind of scary
[22:56]because hearts get bruised, and you know, you throw your whole self into everything,
[22:59]you're putting all your eggs in that basket, and what if they get smashed?
[23:03]So I think that part of the maternal protectionism,
[23:06]I think that's partly kind of that British reaction to tall pop you've been drove.
[23:10]You know, and actually that's the personal thing about, you know,
[23:14]I think I've always felt in my life and growing up certainly that I was too much,
[23:20]that I was too loud, I was too tall, I was too enthusiastic.
[23:25]I wasn't cool, you know, which means being a little bit restrained or more elegant
[23:31]or more measured.
[23:32]So I think that was for me an interesting way of playing with the pros and cons and the social
[23:38]judgment on being someone who properly goes for it and also being a woman, especially
[23:44]the proper goes for it.
[23:45]Yeah, I always think back, I had this moment when I was young and we had these like secret
[23:49]centers at school, do you have that when you, you know, you give a gift, but you don't have it.
[23:54]And so I spent like hours on the secret sanding gift.
[23:57]I was like in my closet making wrapping paper and making it so perfect,
[24:01]I like had to get it just right.
[24:03]And I remember my mom coming in and saying, you know, Zippy, like you shouldn't spend
[24:07]all this effort because probably no one's going to be giving that much effort to your gift,
[24:11]you know, like maybe you shouldn't be doing, you know, to working so hard at this.
[24:16]And I think about that moment a lot, when I, now that I have my own four kids and, you know,
[24:22]like with Alex sort of going out in her own, like if you want to put yourself out there,
[24:26]do you have to get it back?
[24:28]Like is it just the effort?
[24:29]I don't know, random story, but I don't know.
[24:31]I'm not talking about the winning of brilliant story and it kind of feels like what are you doing at
[24:34]what is not always about the end, sometimes the means and the self that approach to life
[24:40]is kind of the approach you want to take to life, you know, sometimes it also can be
[24:44]perfectionist or exhausting or to extreme, you know, there is beauty and balance of moderation.
[24:49]So again, I think the joy of novels is you get to explore these things in which there is no right
[24:54]answer. And actually one day it might be one answer and another day it might be another answer.
[24:59]And, you know, this is probably the such a fun way of putting on these different
[25:05]personas and putting on these extreme situations that kind of go, what happens if you're
[25:10]a woman that's hoping to go for it? How would people react? And, you know, trying to
[25:14]go on for size and figuring out, yeah, there were great things and there are awful things about
[25:18]all of these approaches.
[25:19]I feel like now that we're chatting, I don't know if you've read Eleanor elephant is completely
[25:23]fine, but I would love to see it. I would love to see Alex and Eleanor sort of in a coffee shop
[25:30]together and see what they would have to talk about. You know, I mean, there's such different,
[25:35]it wouldn't be funny. Yeah, do you know what? It's really interesting because I read
[25:39]Eleanor. Eleanor reminded me of Alex that come up before the novel again. Yes, exactly.
[25:45]So the Alex who is before all this stuff happened. Yep. And so that was really interesting for me
[25:51]because I was like, oh, oh, she's really like old Alex. I'm saying that, you know, it was like
[25:57]the collision. But you know what he has arrived, you get to do these things. We're like, I'm going
[26:00]to take a pastel and like this liberated future felt and like the passion together and play with
[26:07]them and things like that. I love the way the books can speak to each other like that as well.
[26:12]You know, they can speak across genres, types, things like that. It feels like for a very
[26:17]lowly professional, you sometimes think for totally insane. I think you can be a very daring thing.
[26:24]I wonder if your experience with science fiction writing played into twists and turns and ended
[26:30]up coming in this book. You wrote a piece for The Guardian called is the future female fixing
[26:35]sci-fi's women problem. I guess you were asked to write a sci-fi story and you had your doubts
[26:39]originally. You wrote, what on earth did women inventing the future mean? Was I supposed to write
[26:43]some sort of feminist space opera full of menstruating aliens? A utopian version of the singularity
[26:49]with robots who'd like to talk about their feelings? I'd like laughed out loud when I read that.
[26:53]And you wrote in that article that, you know, science fiction had traditionally been male
[26:58]dominated both in its readership and the writers. Yeah, you've always loved reading sci-fi.
[27:03]And in a way, you've ended up, I mean, I don't know if this would even be called sci-fi.
[27:06]I'm not exactly sure of the definition, but definitely with some unexpected twists and turns that
[27:11]are not in the course of, you know, daily life. So did you try to sort of marry those genres
[27:16]like that? Or did you have such a good time writing in the science fiction essay that you decided
[27:21]to move the book in this direction? Or what? Well, so that a short story was, yeah, for the women
[27:26]invent the future anthology. That was commissioned by John Everyone, who were a kind of think tank
[27:30]and the whole pan behind this anthology. So we're going to ask the female sci-fi writers,
[27:36]which is interesting because, yeah, I don't think my book would really tick any sci-fi,
[27:41]but there's someone who just described it as neuro sci-fi fiction, which I kind of liked.
[27:45]And my publisher was like, don't tell that to anyone. I'll find it terrifying.
[27:49]But yeah, it was, and the whole idea is that they want to kind of, you know, get the more
[27:54]fashion female sci-fi voices out there and also some more character, more female characters
[27:59]that could be role models for girls who want to take science, technology, engineering and maths,
[28:04]subjects, or might want to, you know, become tech entrepreneurs or whatever it might be.
[28:09]It's a really interesting project. And actually, when I wrote the novel, I just wrote the novel,
[28:15]for me, it was just the story. And I think I didn't really think about genre. And then, of course,
[28:20]you know, when it comes to then working with the publisher, they're like, what do we call this?
[28:26]You know, we can't call it urban fantasy to prevent people think of werewolves and vampires.
[28:32]We can't call it science fiction because it isn't really science fiction. And we do
[28:37]we call it specter to fiction. And they decided on like commercial fiction with a twist,
[28:41]which is a great cop act. Yeah. And I think totally for me, it was that I read very broadly
[28:48]across all genres. And I don't think he's long returned. I just like the story. And so I think
[28:52]I've tried to join for the genre, that's just a story. You know, I was like, well, there's a
[28:57]bit of sci-fi and a bit of fantasy and a bit of detective fiction and a bit of rom-com. And,
[29:02]you know, I thought I was probably playing with a lot of those expectations in those trades.
[29:06]But what was really interesting about the article that you mentioned that wrote in the Guardian
[29:11]off the back of that short story and that kind of feminist sci-fi anthology was the reaction. Now,
[29:16]the Guardian, I don't know if you guys know this in the States, you know, in the UK, the Guardian is
[29:20]famous for having, shall we say quite the stiffer's commentors on any online articles? And I got this
[29:29]whole wave of comments that are, well, you've obviously never read, you know, list here a bunch
[29:36]of amazing female sci-fi authors. You know, you've never read them, 17th wave, female sci-fi
[29:41]feminism, blah, blah, blah. And hilariously, they were making exactly the point I was making,
[29:48]which was, I think, what unhelpful in genre is to have any sense of right. Because, you know,
[29:56]I think I would be terrified to have a cool myself in science fiction, or football.
[30:00]because I feel like I hadn't read all the canonical classics.
[30:03]I wasn't reading the right kind of wonk authors.
[30:08]I didn't have a totally comprehensive academic overview
[30:11]of the genre or whatever.
[30:13]And I hate that because I think what we need right now,
[30:16]more than ever, is a sense of welcome,
[30:19]a sense of diversity, a sense of quirkiness,
[30:22]a sense of individuality, in rising and in reasoning,
[30:26]under threat, it's under pressure.
[30:29]You know, there's not just a whole generation,
[30:32]but all of us are spending a lot more time, you know,
[30:35]watching Netflix or just some peace calling mind
[30:37]literally to our social media, as opposed to reading,
[30:40]you know, long-form books.
[30:42]And I think what really doesn't help
[30:44]is making people feel like their voices,
[30:47]their experiences, different genres or different stories
[30:50]or different hybrids aren't valid,
[30:53]because they haven't read the talent or read the classic.
[30:56]So read this feminist also, read that, you know, iconic writer.
[31:01]Actually, what I think is great is the more disruptive
[31:06]voices to get to all over the place,
[31:08]just bringing their partial bits of reading
[31:10]and their partial experiences and their lived experience
[31:14]of the world into their writing.
[31:16]And I think that has sometimes been an issue,
[31:18]especially with kind of science fiction and fantasy,
[31:20]that it's been a very self-protective community,
[31:24]which is always amazing because that's also
[31:25]where you get real passion, get amazing, dedicated fans
[31:29]who adore the genre.
[31:31]And you know, I used to be an obsessive exhalpy.
[31:34]So, you know, I know of which I speak.
[31:36]But, you know, I think it can also be incredibly unhelpful
[31:40]to make people feel that they've got to take
[31:42]that boxes to qualify as being this sort of writer
[31:46]or that sort of writer.
[31:47]And, you know, they need to do a kind of apprenticeship
[31:50]by reading whichever authors are, you know,
[31:53]particularly well thought or at a time
[31:55]or at the end of a week discovered
[31:57]and off of whatever it might be.
[31:58]So, now that was a very interesting experience
[32:01]when you're writing that and come on,
[32:02]I mean, anything where you're going to be saying,
[32:04]you know, about female science fiction,
[32:07]you know, it's going to create a shift in the heart
[32:09]in my friend.
[32:10]So, I kind of knew it was going to come.
[32:12]I think you're right, though.
[32:15]I mean, I think one of the greatest things
[32:16]about writing is that there's sort of no barrier to entry.
[32:20]This is not needing a patent to start producing
[32:24]some sort of tool.
[32:25]I mean, like writing, you just open up Microsoft Word
[32:28]or whatever and just start doing it.
[32:30]Anyone can do it and to make people feel
[32:33]that someone's sort of guarding the gates
[32:35]is just totally against what's the greatest part
[32:38]is just hearing so many different voices.
[32:40]And that's why I think reading is so great.
[32:42]You never know.
[32:43]There's just all different people's stories and visions.
[32:45]Oh, 100%.
[32:47]And, you know, I think, of course,
[32:48]that's how you can, you know, I'm a voracious leader
[32:50]across all kinds of genres and industry
[32:53]and I think, you know, if you are a writer also,
[32:55]there is huge value in trying to interact
[32:58]with that history and that tradition.
[33:00]And, you know, we're all kind of on the shoulders of giants.
[33:03]So, I can only write because of all the books
[33:05]I've ever read, really.
[33:07]But, yeah, I think what we read right now
[33:10]is a sense of experimentation and play
[33:12]and inclusiveness and fun.
[33:14]And also, you know, that it's just pointless.
[33:16]John, we've found these artists all thing.
[33:18]I feel, you know, the real world, quite frankly,
[33:21]to me at the moment feels like a kind of meal game
[33:24]and William Gibson kind of mere future experience, you know?
[33:28]Like, I feel like I'm living in the fight by either punk novels
[33:33]that I was reading in the 80s and 90s now.
[33:36]It feels like, you know, mixing with a good bit
[33:38]of kind of Cold War Russian spy thriller.
[33:41]I mean, the world's moment seems so far away
[33:44]from the kind of, you know, literary novels
[33:48]that were always held up in a realistic myth,
[33:51]such as, you know, people going for walks and parts
[33:53]and sitting around in its tables,
[33:55]having existential conversations in West London.
[33:58]Not to me, so totally unreal compared to actually, you know,
[34:02]not different genres.
[34:03]So I think boundaries are to solve it everywhere
[34:05]and that's a great thing.
[34:06]I think we shouldn't feel sorry
[34:07]to, like, jump in the pool and splash around
[34:10]to mix all my levels.
[34:13]I know Molly, we're almost out of time.
[34:15]I don't want to take up all your time all day
[34:17]and you've been so generous to spend the time talking to me.
[34:20]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors before we go?
[34:24]Oh, goodness, that's a big one.
[34:26]Whenever anyone asks me something like this,
[34:28]I always say quick and play to ride Richard Skinner.
[34:31]He's actually got the count at the moment
[34:32]on how to ride a novel, which I really recommend
[34:35]people to go out and look at.
[34:36]You see the director of the Faber Academy novel writing course
[34:40]and I did a month kind of spin to that a good six or so
[34:44]years ago now.
[34:45]But what Richard always said at the end of every session
[34:49]our group did with him was just going.
[34:53]I think that is everything.
[34:55]It's everything with writing.
[34:56]Look, maybe you'll write for 70 years
[34:59]and at the end of it you'll have one book
[35:01]that will be amazing.
[35:02]Again, and you love it.
[35:04]I think there are so many distractions.
[35:06]There are so many things.
[35:07]There are so many things you can worry about
[35:08]about playing the market, about different forms.
[35:12]You've just got to keep going because nothing exists
[35:16]unless you have the thing itself.
[35:18]You know, get everything and just keep going.
[35:20]And it will take its own time and it sometimes
[35:22]it will be one year project and sometimes it will be
[35:24]a seven year project.
[35:25]But just as you said, you know, that's the joy of writing.
[35:28]You don't need anything for a pen and a paper,
[35:30]for a dictaphone or a laptop or however you choose to do it.
[35:34]And as long as you're writing, you're a writer.
[35:37]So yeah, just keep going.
[35:40]Awesome, very inspiring.
[35:42]Thank you so much and thanks so much for coming on.
[35:44]Mom, so I have time to read books
[35:46]and taking the time, it was amazing chatting with you.
[35:49]Oh, thank you so much having it.
[35:51]It's been an absolute pleasure.
[35:52]And yeah, I'd love to continue the conversation with anyone
[35:55]who's out there, but disagree or agree or anything else.
[35:58]So I'm on Twitter at mollyflats, you choose.
[36:01]And so yeah, come and throw digital tomatoes.
[36:04]Or otherwise.
[36:05]Perfect, good idea.
[36:07]Okay, thank you.
[36:09]Thank you very much. Bye.
[36:10]This episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read books
[36:12]has been brought to you by Nini's Treats.
[36:14]Nini's Treats.com available also on goldbellie.com.
[36:17]Thanks to Ryan and Steve at Texture Sound
[36:19]for the audio editing and mixing.
[36:21]Thanks for listening.