Priscilla Gilman, Author of "The Anti-Romantic Child: A Memoir of Unexpected Joy"
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[0:37]And here today with Priscilla Gelman, Priscilla is the author of the beautiful and heartfelt memoir The Anti Romantic Child, a story of unexpected joy from 2011,
[0:46]which was her story of raising her special needs son Benjamin. Priscilla and New York City native is a Yale undergrad masters and PhD graduate
[0:55]and a former assistant professor of English at both Yale and Vassar. She also worked as a literary agent.
[1:01]She's published essays and many publications including The New York Times, Red Book and Real Simple, and is a book critic for the Boston Globe.
[1:08]She also speaks frequently at schools and organizations about autism parenting, education and the arts.
[1:14]Her second book, The Critics Daughter, is coming out most likely in 2020. She currently lives in Manhattan with her two sons, ages 19 and almost 16.
[1:23]I'm here with Priscilla Gelman. Welcome Priscilla.
[1:27]Hello! So I'm just going to jump right in because I have so many questions for you.
[1:33]First of all, how did you remember all the incredibly detailed scenes in The Anti Romantic Child?
[1:40]Quotes and everything that you included. I can't even remember when my fourth kid walked.
[1:44]Everybody's always asking, when did this person do this? I have no idea.
[1:48]How did you remember it all? What did you do?
[1:50]You know, it's funny. I think I'm a one-hand. I have amazing memory. I always have.
[1:55]Like my friends would ask me, so what did I do?
[1:59]Like at that party, what was I wearing and I would remember exactly what they were.
[2:02]So I do kind of have a photographic memory. It's interesting. I think actually Benj gets his prodigious memory from me.
[2:10]On the other hand, though, I did a lot of writing through the entire experience, not towards the book, but I emailed.
[2:19]My friends, my mom. And then I kept a little journal.
[2:24]It wasn't like a physical journal, but I kept a little journal in my computer.
[2:27]And I would just write down notes.
[2:29]And part of the reason I was doing that was to give reports to the speech therapist, to the psychologist,
[2:35]whatever it was. So if there was like a development in with Benj, I would write it down.
[2:38]And I kept a list of quotes from him in order to track his language development.
[2:44]And I have to say it was just so incredibly helpful.
[2:47]And I basically had this old computer that had all my vascular emails on it, and I couldn't transfer them.
[2:52]So I kept this rickety computer and kept going back and like looking up those emails.
[2:57]And they were treasure trove.
[2:59]So what inspired you to make this into a memoir?
[3:02]Oh, wow.
[3:03]So until listeners also, how the memoir shaped sort of turned out to be with the narrative weaved in with the poetry.
[3:11]Yeah.
[3:12]I mean, it's such an interesting, I have to give utter credit to my literary agent, Tina Bennett, who was my close friend in grad school at Yale.
[3:21]And she's in the book. She's the person who says, oh, you're in love with him about your partner.
[3:26]My first husband.
[3:28]And she dropped out of grad school and started working as an agent.
[3:32]And she's one of my best friends.
[3:34]So we kept in touch and she'd say, what are you working on?
[3:36]Where are you writing about?
[3:38]And I was a romantic poetry specialist.
[3:41]So I was giving talks about parenting and like the theme of parenting and children in romantic literature.
[3:47]And when Benj was in preschool, I started giving presentations with the director of his preschool to like early intervention conferences at school conferences.
[3:59]And I was sending her talks that I had given in these different contexts.
[4:02]And she said, you know what, I think you should take these and put them together.
[4:06]And I think that you should blend the literature with these talks about early intervention and parenting.
[4:15]And I'll try to sell it as an article.
[4:17]Right.
[4:18]So it was an article for a long time.
[4:20]And I worked on it as an article intermittently for about three years.
[4:23]Wow. Okay.
[4:24]And she sent it out to every single viable venue that you could think of that would take a piece.
[4:31]And I remember it's like, okay, the New Yorker passed the Paris Review pass.
[4:34]And I remember we got down to the American scholar and they passed.
[4:37]And I said, I thought, okay, you know, this is not going to happen, but ever.
[4:40]It's fine.
[4:41]And she said, you know what?
[4:42]I think this is a book proposal.
[4:44]And I think you need to work on it as a proposal.
[4:46]And then it was another year, year and a half that I worked on it intermittently.
[4:49]Because at this point, I was working as a literary agent full time, had two little kids.
[4:52]I was divorced.
[4:54]And then we sold it as a book in 2008.
[4:58]And it came out in 2011.
[5:00]And how long did you spend writing it after that?
[5:03]That came out.
[5:04]I took six months off from my job to really get the complete first draft.
[5:10]And then I turned in the first draft.
[5:12]And my editor, HarperCollins said, you need to add a lot more.
[5:17]You need to write about your marriage.
[5:19]I basically didn't because I wanted to protect my ex-husband.
[5:22]And you need to write about your childhood.
[5:24]And so all the material about my father.
[5:26]I loved all that.
[5:27]Yeah.
[5:28]Yeah.
[5:29]She had good advice.
[5:30]She was wonderful.
[5:31]Yeah.
[5:32]And Claire Watell, thank you.
[5:33]Um, yes.
[5:34]So it ended up being, it was supposed to be like a 50,000 word book.
[5:37]And it ended up being a 90,000 word book.
[5:39]Wow.
[5:40]Yeah.
[5:41]Amazing.
[5:42]Yeah.
[5:43]So in your essay, and maybe I didn't frame this right, the book is mostly about
[5:47]what would include your husband and your family, mostly about coping with and raising
[5:53]a child bench, Benjamin Ben, who has more special needs, including at the time of
[5:58]the book, hypolexia, sensory disorder, fine motor, gross motor, delays.
[6:04]Yep.
[6:05]That type of situation, but you didn't want to label it as saying he's autistic or
[6:08]asperger, as you said in the book, that's burglary.
[6:11]Right.
[6:12]Right.
[6:13]Right.
[6:14]Right.
[6:15]Right.
[6:16]Right.
[6:17]Right.
[6:18]Right.
[6:19]Right.
[6:20]Right.
[6:21]Right.
[6:22]Yeah.
[6:23]Yeah.
[6:24]Yeah.
[6:25]Yeah.
[6:26]Yeah.
[6:27]Yeah.
[6:28]Yeah.
[6:29]Yeah.
[6:30]Yeah.
[6:31]Yeah.
[6:32]Um, so when he's 13, I was like, graciously reading this because I'm like, what happened
[6:34]to this boy?
[6:35]Um, but, um, you wrote parenting bench, a child very different from the one I'd imagined
[6:38]having, has impressed upon me just how important it is to move beyond normative expectations about
[6:43]what our children will or won't be, should or shouldn't do.
[6:46]So can you talk in the beginning what it was like for you to have a child, unlike the one you
[6:51]have been in the next two months?
[6:52]Yeah.
[6:53]Yeah.
[6:54]So the sub-titled, my book is a story of unexpected joy.
[6:56]And that was very, I remember when the book came out, um, and I was on MSNBC live, and Thomas
[7:04]Roberts was interviewing me, and he said the anti-romantic child, you're going to get a lot of
[7:08]flack for that title.
[7:09]Yeah.
[7:10]And I said, well, the sub-titled is a story of unexpected joy.
[7:13]So initially, you know, I use, um, images and quotations from a romantic poetry about playful
[7:20]imaginative, spontaneous, affectionate children to talk about how bench seemed initially
[7:28]to be the opposite of this, what I was expecting as a parent to have a child that wanted
[7:32]to snuggle with me, that wanted to play with me, um, that was able to cohort around in
[7:39]nature and bench was so physically not only frail, but also timid in a way.
[7:46]And, um, the experience ultimately was one of growth for me in coming to realize that
[7:54]projecting or expecting something of your children is not going to lead to their most successful
[8:01]and joyful blooming.
[8:03]And I really wanted to tune into who bench was and not what I thought he was going to be
[8:08]or wanted him to be.
[8:10]Yep.
[8:11]And that quote, thank you for reminding me of that quote because I like it a lot.
[8:14]It's very true.
[8:15]It's very true.
[8:16]And it's become even more true.
[8:18]Um, and that was when bench was 13 and he's now 19.
[8:22]19.
[8:23]I know it's talking.
[8:24]And the most latest piece that I've written about him is a piece that I wrote.
[8:28]I don't know if you read this, but I wrote for Slate about Benjamin and David Bowie.
[8:34]Oh.
[8:35]And that sort of takes him through his high school graduation.
[8:38]And he's been on a gap year for the last year.
[8:40]So awesome.
[8:41]And then he's going to college.
[8:42]He's going to the answer.
[8:43]No way.
[8:44]Yeah.
[8:45]Oh my gosh.
[8:46]Y'all came full circle where he went to preschool.
[8:47]Yeah.
[8:48]Yeah.
[8:49]That's amazing.
[8:50]Yeah.
[8:51]And in the interview, you mentioned that you did for MSNBC, which I watched, which was great.
[8:55]It said that one out of 110 kids is on the autistic spectrum.
[8:58]And for boys, that figure is one out of 70.
[9:01]And now you've become like a leading autism parenting expert.
[9:04]So what does that mean?
[9:06]And for parents out there wondering if their child is on the spectrum or what to do about it,
[9:10]what would you tell them?
[9:12]Yeah.
[9:13]And you know, those numbers have actually, I think about a month or two ago, there was a new,
[9:17]they released new numbers.
[9:18]And it's even more like the prevalence is even greater.
[9:21]And that's, I think, in large part due to more sensitive diagnostic tools and people being
[9:26]less afraid to put the label on their child or accept the label for their child.
[9:30]I would say not put the label on their child.
[9:32]And that was something, you know, Ben should not get the diagnosis until he was about
[9:36]11 or 12.
[9:39]And I think in large part, that's because when he was first evaluated at the old 12 study center
[9:45]of a wonderful psychologist, she said he's too emotionally related to get the diagnosis.
[9:53]And I thought, okay, that's fine, he doesn't need the, you don't need the diagnosis unless
[9:58]it unlocks service.
[10:00]sets. And he had such deficits in so many areas that we were getting services for free from
[10:06]the state. And that's really one of the major reasons why you want to seek out the label
[10:10]is to get services. But one of the things that publishing my book taught me is how important
[10:17]it is for me. I don't want to shy away from saying Benjamin is autistic because there's
[10:22]nothing wrong with being autistic. There's nothing to fear in that label I've learned. In fact,
[10:28]I think that autism comes with a host of incredible strengths often for these kids. And I feel
[10:34]it's important in order to help other families and other kids and also to help Benjamin fully own
[10:40]his identity. To say, he does have autism. He is autistic. It's not a disease. I don't even really
[10:48]like the word disorder anymore. Maybe condition. It is a disability. He does need special accommodations.
[10:55]He will be getting those evaster, which is one of the reasons why he's going to vassers
[10:59]opposed to a gal, which I don't think is quite ready. Like with her kid like Benjamin. He might
[11:04]have to get down. Um, being able to take a test in a quiet room that doesn't have distractions
[11:09]around him. He's guaranteed a single room. Okay, ambassador. That's very important because
[11:14]accommodating to somebody else is scheduled on the sensory overload of having somebody play
[11:18]music or, you know, come in late. I mean, I think it's hard to have a roommate for all of us.
[11:23]I remember my own roommate was one like that. You got lucky. You get your own room. Um,
[11:28]and also as a musician to make his music on his own. Um, so some other accommodations,
[11:34]which, you know, he needs less and less, but the ability to say, um, tap directions,
[11:40]read aloud instead of having just reading them on the page because he's not necessarily going to
[11:46]get intonation and tone. Those are some of the things that are that are challenging for him. Um,
[11:51]but I do think it's very important. So what I would say to parents who are concerned that
[11:56]perhaps their child is autistic, I would say there's nothing to fear when someone tells you
[12:02]that they think that your child might be on this spectrum. It's really any kind of evaluation or
[12:08]diagnosis. What's always helped me is to look at it as a way to understand my child better
[12:16]and just get more information about the strategies and the approaches that are going to help my
[12:24]child bloom. So, and it has helped Benjamin, too. I think emotionally, because I remember he used to
[12:30]say when he would have a meltdown, um, be freaking out about something and he would say,
[12:35]am I the only kid in the world who feels this way? And I, and one of the things that owning his
[12:42]identity as an autistic person has done for him is that he says, I know that this is often hard
[12:47]for autistic people. So this is a challenging situation for me. And I'm going to bring, uh,
[12:54]earplugs with me because it's hard for me. And it's given him a sense of solidarity with other
[12:59]people who have autism and it's given him a sense of feeling less alone, which I think is
[13:06]really, really important. Um, so that's, and I don't know if you know this. But we, um,
[13:13]I wrote a piece about Christmas and then for real simple. And in the piece, it talked about how we
[13:19]loved seeing Christmas girls together. So we ended up making a Christmas album. We recorded it
[13:24]professionally. And we, one of the reasons that he wanted to do that was he wanted to, he said,
[13:30]it's time for me. I want to show my face and real simple. He was in the photograph, which is the
[13:34]the first time that he's ever done that. I had said to the editor, I don't, I want to protect his
[13:40]privacy. I always have. And then his therapist said to me, you know, he might be ready. You should
[13:46]ask him, give him the option of doing it if he wants to. And he said, mom, I'm nervous, but I want
[13:52]people to see my face. Um, because I want them to see that I'm happy and that I am not embarrassed
[14:01]or ashamed of being autistic. And we didn't make much from the CD, but the proceeds that we
[14:07]did make, we gave to organizations that help autistic teenagers make a successful transition to
[14:13]college or employment because they don't have to go to college. That's another thing that I would
[14:17]say. There's a different path for everybody. Yeah. Did you ever get speaking of children's privacy?
[14:22]Did you ever get any pushback about how much you were sharing about him at such a young age when
[14:27]he didn't have the wear without saying, you know, please don't write this or yes. Yes. Um,
[14:34]I mean, I had people saying, give me a hard time. Some people about, you know, the random snippets
[14:40]I might include in an article about it at a kid in mind. So I always try to ask them, what do you think?
[14:44]But yes, my little kids are so little and yes, this is a whole book. Yes. I think it's beautiful
[14:49]what you did. I just wondered if anyone in your life given you any, any grief for it. No one,
[14:54]no one might private life. Absolutely. I'm on social media. Yeah. And I think it was funny when I was,
[15:04]I was doing conversations with editors when I was deciding which editor I was going to go with
[15:08]for the book. And one of the editors said to me, the first question she asked me was, are you worried
[15:15]about how Benjamin is going to react to this? And that to me, like the fact that that was the
[15:21]the first thing that came into her mind, it was like, this is not the right person for this book.
[15:25]Because I actually didn't tell him or my younger son that I was writing a book about the family
[15:31]until it was done. I didn't show it to anyone in the family until I had to legally.
[15:35]My hard work all just like, you're like, you need your mother to sign off on this. Your ex-husband
[15:40]needs to sign off on this? Really? Everybody. Everybody. Well, they gave me a list of the people.
[15:45]And then I had to give it to them. Um, but I really wanted to write, I was so important to me to
[15:52]honestly, on the one hand, honestly, on the other hand, kindly. And that's like a difficult balance
[15:56]to achieve. Um, but I really did, on the one hand, write the book as an act of, um, I would say
[16:05]outreach to other families because I felt incredibly alone. There were no books that I read
[16:09]when I was going through this or resources. Most of the resources said, you know, kids like
[16:15]we'll 80% of them will end up in institutions, you know, um, they were all about sort of
[16:21]drastically lowering, um, your expectations of what could happen with the child. And I had to kind
[16:26]of forge my own way and at each place and each point, um, focus on bench rather than any generalizations.
[16:35]So I really wanted to write a very individual story. And, um, but on the other hand, it really
[16:42]was in my heart of hearts. Like it's, it's a love story. I say that on the first page.
[16:47]And I hope that anybody who reads this book will understand and appreciate and fall in love
[16:53]with bench. And so I see the book always a sort of going ahead of bench as an act of advocacy
[17:00]for him and a way for people to appreciate and understand and adore him the way I do.
[17:06]Um, it also allows people to adore you because I was reading the book. And I'm just like, wow,
[17:14]look at what a tireless advocate you were for him. I mean, every step of the way with this teacher
[17:18]and this, I mean, I understand that's what we do as parents. That's just what you do. You have to like
[17:22]make sure. But it was just the non-stop when I heard like the scenes when you had, you had to sing
[17:27]him to sleep for half an hour. I was like, oh my God, I can, you know, I'm like writing book after
[17:32]book. And I'm like, oh my God. And if I had to sing on top of it, like, the singing for me was
[17:38]really fun. You're not a musical theater girl, but it's like, every night that that's required
[17:45]for bedtime. Like, I feel like bedtime comes at the worst time of the day because you meet the most
[17:49]like, you know, of every emotional resource. You're the most tired yourself. Yeah. Anyway,
[17:56]it's funny when people say like, how did you do this? And like, how did you muster the energy? It's
[18:00]funny. My mother is a literary agent. And so I sort of grew up, my mother is an incredible advocate
[18:07]like that's what she does. And as a professor when I was a teacher, I saw myself, I guess, I mean,
[18:14]I didn't see myself at the time, but looking back at it, I see that I was an advocate for the
[18:20]literature and also an advocate for my students. And, you know, and I've become an advocate for all
[18:26]autistic people and really all children. And I consider myself still an advocate for literature.
[18:33]But yeah, I mean, it was just, I didn't question it. Like, I never thought I was just like,
[18:38]in this mode where I love this kid so much. And at every moment, I've just got to be fighting for him.
[18:46]And then I've got to teach him how to fight for himself. Those really. And you also did such a
[18:51]a beautiful job of writing not only about bend, but about your other son, James. And how, you
[18:57]know, how he dealt with that and how he was a parent had to meet both their needs simultaneously,
[19:02]even though they were very different boys. I mean, as most parents kids are, but in particular.
[19:06]Yeah. So how did you how did you make sure that James wasn't overlooked that you balanced it
[19:11]all so well? Yeah. It's funny. I wrote a piece for a post parents called Ernie and Burt's mother.
[19:17]Oh, yes. And you just said, you know, essentially like they're very, very different,
[19:22]but it's really just as I think Benjamin is for an individual child, it's really just an exaggerated
[19:28]version of what all parents go through. So it is. That's why I sort of saw this as a universal
[19:32]parenting story. Because we all have, we all can look at our kids and say, how did these two
[19:38]children come from the same side of parents? Like it's crazy how different they are. And
[19:44]um, James actually turned out, I mean, I don't write about it much in this book. I've written
[19:49]about it in some pieces since. And one day, James is always like, mom, he used to say when he was little,
[19:53]mommy, when are you going to write a book about me? No. Um,
[20:00]But, you know, he actually turned out to be dyslexic.
[20:03]Okay. So it has hyperlexia and dyslexia.
[20:06]So I actually literally had two brains that were opposite, diametrically opposed.
[20:13]And, and he also had some social anxiety, which he's very introverted,
[20:18]then just actually very extroverted. He's an autistic extrovert.
[20:23]When he was quiet, it was because he was on sensory overload. But once he got over that,
[20:27]he's now, like, if he walks in, he's the life of the party.
[20:30]He loves parties and James is still kind of shy and on the fringes.
[20:34]I think, and you know, I'll often say, I feel like I have an inclusive classroom in my apartment.
[20:39]You know, like I have. And I parent them in very different ways.
[20:44]And it's really about sort of tuning into what each of the needs,
[20:47]they need different tones of voice when they need to be disciplined,
[20:52]then responds to like clear and loud and aggressive to get his attention.
[21:00]That is not okay. Or that needs to stop or whatever. James will get overwhelmed by that.
[21:05]And he needs a different approach to that. Their relationship is so moving to me. They're very close
[21:11]now, actually. They've worked it out. And I remember when there's one funny story that kind of
[21:20]says a lot about the relationship. James was with my ex-husband, picking Ben job from a psychologist
[21:25]appointment. I think James must have been like six and Ben was nine. And the psychologist came out,
[21:31]and this is the same person who evaluated him in the book when he was three.
[21:34]Yeah. And she said, hi, Jamesie. How are you? What's going on? And he said,
[21:39]I need to say something to you. Benjamin is not being a good brother to me.
[21:45]And Benjamin was a guest. He was horrified. Oh, no. Oh, no. What am I doing? What can I do better?
[21:53]And so they had a whole session where the psychologist kind of mediated him and said, James,
[21:57]what do you need more of from Ben's? And I want him to ask how my day was. And so every just
[22:06]and it's now become very natural sort of second nature to Ben, but he would come home from school
[22:10]and I would hear this. It would just, my heart, it bends my heart. I would hear him going,
[22:14]hi, James. How was your day? And now they're just so loving with each other and so sweet.
[22:24]That's so nice. Yeah. And then in the midst of raising Ben and advocating so tirelessly on his
[22:31]behalf, you also went through a divorce yourself from a man that you originally thought was a safe
[22:36]choice, quote unquote. But from whom throughout the book, you became increasing your life rather
[22:41]became increasingly estranged, especially given his own issues, which you sort of alluded to maybe
[22:46]he had some of these issues himself. But yes, there's anything like that. And then you wrote,
[22:51]I couldn't see any end in sight to this arid empty sterile life. I felt my spark, my dynamism,
[22:56]my optimism draining away. I sensed my own natural sininess, my bright radiance dimming.
[23:02]The bright radiance is a quote from Wordsworth. Yeah, beautiful. So be honest, there must have been
[23:07]times throughout this whole thing when you felt a little sorry for yourself. I mean, you were going
[23:11]through so much stuff, especially then your father gets so sick and he's all the way in Japan. And
[23:16]I was just reading this being like, how much more can this woman take? Like, how did you cope with
[23:22]this divorce and the hurdles of the paradigm, your dizziness and all of it with only occasional
[23:27]you getting on the bathroom floor? I'm crying moments. Yes, there were those, there were those sitting
[23:32]in the bathroom or getting the shower. Sorry, sorry, in the shower. I'm on the bathroom floor.
[23:37]You're in the shower. Everybody in their place. The water mass is the crying.
[23:43]You know, it's funny, I will say that I look back at the period now and I think I do not understand
[23:49]how I got through that. And it makes everything that's come later seem so easy in comparison to
[23:55]that time. But I think there are a couple of things. One, I really don't think I ever felt sorry
[24:02]for myself. I just, you know, I had gone through this experience with my ex-husband where when we met,
[24:08]his mother was dying of cancer and she died a year after we got married. We took care of her for
[24:14]a year and she died. She was 54. And his father had died of MS like six months before we met and he
[24:20]was 54. And I just always had this feeling that, you know, these terrible things had happened to
[24:28]incredible people that I adored. And I just accepted it that bad, I think bad things happen to
[24:36]good people, you know. And I just, it didn't seem unusual in a way. It just felt to me like,
[24:45]and I think the way that I coped with it was to not waste time or energy, giving in to
[24:53]a Ymee or like, wows me. I'm just like, I have to get up every morning and I have to do what I
[24:58]need to do today. And that was the way that I got through it. I just tried not to think long range,
[25:03]even with Benge, if I started to think like, oh God, what's going to happen when I need to apply to
[25:07]a different school, you know, in the school ends. I'm thinking God, his school actually then
[25:12]added a middle and high school. So I never had to apply to get into college. But, you know,
[25:17]all of those hurdles that you're thinking ever, like, add a lesson. So my gosh, how am I going to
[25:20]deal with that? I was just like, I need to focus on this year, this month, this week, and I just
[25:26]can't think too far into the future. However, I will say, you know, I'm writing this book now about
[25:30]my father. Yeah, tell me about that book. And, you know, writing it, I'm realizing that it probably
[25:36]would have been better if I had cried a little bit more and expressed how overwhelmed I was a
[25:44]little bit more when I was going through all of this because I think there's a kind of delayed
[25:48]morning that I've been going through for the past. And writing this book is putting it to rest.
[25:54]Like, it's basically an exorcism, in a sense, of that grief that I didn't really, I didn't have
[26:02]time to feel or experience because I was basically getting up in the morning, going to work,
[26:09]parenting with two children that each had special needs, and I actually ended up having them both
[26:14]in special schools and suing the DOA to get their tuition reimbursed. I had a file cabinet for each kid.
[26:19]You know, it was pretty crazy. And so I think I would advise other people, like,
[26:27]sometimes for me, I should have slowed down a little bit more and allowed myself to feel
[26:32]that sadness. And that sense of regret a little bit more because it did, it will out eventually,
[26:39]right? You can't repress it and suppress it indefinitely because it does have a facts.
[26:46]So the book about my father, which Norton is publishing, it's called The Critics Daughter.
[26:52]At this writing, it is called The Critics Daughter.
[26:57]So my father was a, he taught at Yale Drama School and he was a drama critic for Newsweek and the
[27:01]nation and my parents split up when I was 10. And it was extremely better, vicious divorce.
[27:11]And I was very, very close to my father. And he was the one who shaped my vision over me,
[27:16]to parenting, to know from the intimate child. So, you know, in a sense, like if my first book was
[27:22]a book about being a mother, this is a book about being a daughter. So it is a book about parenting,
[27:27]I suppose, at the same time, right? It's kind of the inverse. It's kind of a flip side. And I
[27:31]think one of the reasons that I decided to do it was that people really responded to the scenes
[27:36]about my father. Those were amazing. It was my first book. My first book, David. I feel like I could
[27:41]see the two of these so amazing. Yeah, he was an amazing person, very, very, very complicated.
[27:48]And so one of the tricky things about this book is acknowledging my father's dark side and
[27:54]acknowledging my father's flaws, seeing him whole against the sky to use that phrase that I have
[28:00]some real good about the end. So it really is, I think if I, you know, I wanted the intimate
[28:06]child to be a universal parenting story of how we, none of us get the child that we expect and
[28:10]how you adapt to that. This is a universal story of what it is to be a child and look at your
[28:16]parent and you idealize them and then the veil is ripped off and you see them with all their
[28:22]flaws and their weaknesses and their frailties. And in my father's case, a lot of very dark stuff
[28:28]and how you come to terms with that and forgive and get back to that place of pure love
[28:38]in a wiser sort of more, with a more sort of capacious vision of them. So it really is similar
[28:45]to anti-emantic child in that sense, that sort of three-act structure. But if like what you expect,
[28:50]what you think, what you idea, how you idealize and then the falling away from that and then
[28:55]coming back in the end and recognizing and affirming what was beautiful and true and pure,
[29:01]that's still there in your relationship to the parent that's gone. And it's also a book about grief.
[29:06]You know, it falls into that category of like year of magical thinking. So good. I mean, yeah.
[29:10]The long goodbye to Megan or work, can you run that? Oh, I love it. It's so good. I think that's
[29:16]one of the things about parenting that like people don't tell you so much at the beginning,
[29:19]like these ideals you have. Like these kids, they come at like having had four kids. At the beginning,
[29:24]I felt I had some control over what they became. Now that I've had four, I realized I have like
[29:29]maybe five percent, maybe five percent of who, maybe, maybe these are manners.
[29:34]Yeah. Yes. Yeah. But it's the book of them. That's just who they are. It's so is. I so agree with you.
[29:42]Like Benjamin, the miniti came out. He is this and people will say this to me. You know, and they asked
[29:47]me like when did I know that there was something different instantly instantly as soon as I held
[29:52]them. And I look at the pictures of him in the hospital. You know, on the second day where they
[29:56]come in, I talk in the book about how, you know, he had this big hematoma. Yeah.
[30:00]And the photographer comes in to take like the cheery pictures
[30:02]of photographers like, oh my gosh.
[30:04]And they pulls that down over his head.
[30:06]But I look at the picture and he's like,
[30:08]a little intense mad scientist with a gleam in his eye.
[30:11]And James E, I still call him James E
[30:13]even though he's, he's James.
[30:15]Cause he's almost 16, he's at least 16 in two weeks.
[30:19]You know, he was just this love bug from the minute he came out.
[30:23]He was, but you know, intense and difficult
[30:27]and challenging in his own way.
[30:29]Polar opposite and he's, you can still see,
[30:32]look at those baby pictures.
[30:33]That is who he is.
[30:34]Yeah. Yeah.
[30:35]Just, I just, I don't know what you're gonna get.
[30:39]Like, the opposite end.
[30:41]The opposite end.
[30:42]You gotta just ride it out the rest of your life.
[30:44]Isn't it?
[30:45]And you like it.
[30:46]And you know what's it?
[30:46]It's like, that's why being a parent.
[30:48]I mean, I always say this, you know,
[30:49]I've recently become a meditation teacher.
[30:52]Oh, that's right, I wanted to ask you.
[30:53]And because meditation is one of the other things
[30:55]that got me through parent.
[30:56]Okay.
[30:56]These kids and the difficult time.
[30:58]I started meditating when I was 21.
[31:01]And it was my refuge.
[31:03]And it was what allowed me to come home from teaching all day
[31:09]with to a baby who needed to nurse
[31:11]and a four-year-old autistic kid who was challenging
[31:17]and just going, being able to go
[31:19]and have those 20 minutes of meditating.
[31:21]Saved me when I would come back
[31:22]and I would feel some clarity and some ability
[31:25]to get through the night.
[31:26]But, you know, they say, I often say that parenting
[31:29]has been an incredible practice for me
[31:32]in learning to accept uncertainty,
[31:36]in learning that we have so little control
[31:39]you were saying over children,
[31:40]but we have so little control in general.
[31:42]It's true, right?
[31:43]And like, you and I are a recovered perfectionist
[31:47]and type-A's and we went to the same school
[31:49]that sort of drilled that into us of like,
[31:52]you have to know, if you work hard
[31:53]and you keep moving forward, like you can accomplish
[31:55]anything and you have so much control over it.
[31:57]And ultimately, so much of life is chance and luck.
[32:00]And the best that we can do is just learn
[32:04]how to sort of navigate, right?
[32:06]The unexpected and open ourselves to it.
[32:10]Right?
[32:11]Remember that quote from Tony Morrison
[32:12]that I put at the end of the book,
[32:13]right?
[32:14]If you surrender to the air, you could ride it.
[32:15]Yes.
[32:16]Which is actually from my best,
[32:18]really friends, you're a big bitch.
[32:20]You're a benchman, it's God, Mother.
[32:21]Oh my gosh, I'm just like spilling through the Everglades.
[32:24]Yes, it's absolutely fine.
[32:26]It's so true, parenting.
[32:27]You're just like, you're like in the ocean on a boat,
[32:29]like, you know where it goes, but not sometimes
[32:32]not even in a boat.
[32:33]Sometimes not even in a boat.
[32:34]Sometimes, yeah.
[32:36]Well, anyway, so any last minute, like parting words
[32:40]to other aspiring writers out there
[32:43]who are trying to do some sort of memoir about their own
[32:46]family of children.
[32:47]You know, it's funny, I spoke earlier
[32:49]about this sort of winding road to becoming a book.
[32:54]Right?
[32:55]And it ties into what we were saying about the unexpected.
[32:59]You may, I never thought that I would use my academic training
[33:05]and what I studied and worked on in taught
[33:08]when I was a professor in a mainstream book.
[33:12]And it ended up profoundly shaping that book
[33:16]and informing it.
[33:16]So I think one word of wisdom would be just be true
[33:21]to your individual path and your individual voice
[33:26]and things in your life and your experience
[33:29]that you might never think would become part of a book might.
[33:34]And to have faith that it's a long, long road.
[33:38]I mean, from the time that I started giving these talks
[33:40]to the time we sold a book as a proposal was four and a half years.
[33:45]And then the book came out three years after that.
[33:48]And the book about my father has been germinating
[33:50]me for, I would say, 10, 15 years.
[33:53]So, and I think as a mother, we have to focus on our children
[33:59]so much of the time.
[34:00]And there may be a year where you're not getting that much
[34:03]writing done, but it's OK in the broad scheme of things
[34:05]because you're living and you're experiencing
[34:07]and everything that you're living and experiencing
[34:09]if you're a memoirist is ultimately going to end up
[34:12]in a piece or a book.
[34:14]Right.
[34:15]So I think that's some words of wisdom that I would give.
[34:19]And then also just to choose your readers carefully
[34:22]because, remember, you were saying before,
[34:24]like, if people are giving you grief.
[34:26]And as a memoirist, people will say, aren't you
[34:30]worried about exposing this person or betraying this person?
[34:32]And I think only show your stuff at early stages
[34:37]to people who are not going to make judgments like that,
[34:41]who are going to respond to the work,
[34:45]to help you with craft and or to help you dig deeper.
[34:50]Those are the kinds of readers that my agent is my best
[34:54]and first reader.
[34:55]She's, I mean, I'm lucky because she's my close friend
[34:57]and she knows all this.
[34:58]But, you know, and then one of my other best friends
[35:02]from really Jamie Lenhart, who's an incredible singer,
[35:05]songwriter, and she will help steer me towards,
[35:09]like, how did this make you feel?
[35:11]Like, you're narrating this.
[35:13]But what's the emotional core of this?
[35:16]And didn't this make you feel like the question that you asked,
[35:20]didn't you feel sorry for yourself?
[35:21]Like, that's a really great kind of question.
[35:24]And I have another friend who's a brilliant,
[35:27]who works in advertising is brilliant creative director
[35:29]and he is also really, really good at kind of pushing me
[35:35]and saying, okay, you've narrated a fact,
[35:38]but what's the emotional ramifications of that fact?
[35:41]Like, how did you feel in the wake of that
[35:43]and ask yourself that?
[35:45]And so it's readers who ask good questions
[35:48]and aren't afraid to push you.
[35:51]That's one thing that I,
[35:53]and it's funny because I'm writing about
[35:54]my father as a critic, right?
[35:56]And I am a critic also.
[35:58]I'm a book critic for the Boston Globe.
[35:59]So it's a book about criticism also.
[36:02]But I always want honest, rigorous feedback.
[36:08]And so one thing that I think that memoirists,
[36:10]if you want to be a successful memoirist,
[36:11]do you need to get over is only wanting thumbs-ups
[36:15]and this is so amazing.
[36:17]It's not helpful at all.
[36:19]It's not helpful.
[36:21]Unless it's really just that amazing.
[36:22]But even what's that amazing!
[36:26]I would write, but I'm happy to talk about it.
[36:29]Anyway, well, thank you so much for coming.
[36:32]And mom's don't have time to read books
[36:34]and sharing your story with Ben
[36:36]and everything that's come after
[36:37]and I can't wait to read your next book.
[36:39]Thank you so much for having this wonderful,
[36:41]wonderful podcast.
[36:43]And hopefully we can encourage mom's to read more books
[36:45]in the interstices of their views.
[36:48]Yes.
[36:49]Thank you.
[36:50]Thanks for listening to today's episode of mom's
[36:52]don't have time to read books,
[36:53]sponsored by Bob O' Botanicals, B-A-B-O, Bob O' Botanicals.
[36:57]Thanks.