Jennifer Wallace, Award Winning Journalist and TV Commentator
[0:00]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and this is Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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[0:51]I'm here today with Jennifer Wallace.
[0:54]Jenny is an award-winning journalist and TV commentator.
[0:57]A regular contributor to The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington
[1:00]Post, and many women's magazines, Jenny got her start as an editor at Double Day Books,
[1:05]and moved on to being a journalist for CBS 60 Minutes.
[1:08]Jenny speaks eloquently about her pieces and hot topics, and parenting lifestyle, technology,
[1:12]and more on TV shows like CBS This Morning and Others.
[1:15]Her tagline is, reporting research-backed advice for better living.
[1:18]She lives here in New York City with her husband and three kids.
[1:21]Welcome, Jenny.
[1:22]Hi, Zibi.
[1:23]Thanks for having me.
[1:24]Thanks for coming.
[1:25]I loved your article in The Wall Street Journal last weekend.
[1:28]It was published May 5, 6, 2018 issue.
[1:32]In fact, I was reading the paper in the car with my husband and was halfway through before
[1:36]I realized it was actually your article.
[1:39]It was the one that we were best talking about.
[1:41]But I was loving it.
[1:42]The article is titled, The Teenage Social Media Trap, Subtitled Adolescence Increasingly
[1:47]Measure and Manage Social Success Online, and it may be taking a toll on their mental health.
[1:53]So tell us how so.
[1:54]Well, so what I first was looking into this article, I honestly was a little naive.
[1:59]I've been reading a lot about the research and, you know, it's very mixed.
[2:04]The research that's out there now, it's very mixed.
[2:06]There are benefits.
[2:08]There are also possibly some really serious negatives.
[2:13]So I was looking into it and my kids are not really on social media yet.
[2:17]They're twins about to turn 13.
[2:20]And I thought that social media was this virtual place for kids to hang out.
[2:27]You know, sort of the way I used Facebook, I just kind of assumed everybody did.
[2:31]And then I started looking into this and reading the new studies and there are a lot
[2:36]of new studies coming out.
[2:38]And it's actually very hard for researchers to do the studies, get them published in
[2:43]a timely way because social media changes so much so quickly.
[2:47]Anyway, I was looking at this and I was realizing that the way kids are using social
[2:52]media today is what one researcher calls it.
[2:55]It's transforming the landscape of peer interactions.
[2:59]So we used to be able to go home after a long day at school, trying on our different selves
[3:04]and trying to be somebody in the lunch room and someone else in the English classroom.
[3:08]And then we could go home and sort of be our for me like my dark self.
[3:12]I couldn't sit at the kitchen table like parents didn't judge me.
[3:17]I could be cerebral and I, you know, and I could just kind of study in my room.
[3:22]And now these kids, the experts I interviewed point out, they don't have this.
[3:26]They go home and what Rachel Simmons, she's a leadership expert up at Smith College and
[3:32]she has a great book out.
[3:34]What she calls it is a second shift that kids come home, particularly adolescent girls,
[3:40]come home after school and they are spending up to six hours on social media, managing
[3:48]their accounts, making their image sort of this crystal clean, perfect image of the perfect
[3:55]student, the perfect girlfriend, the perfect friend and it's exhausting and it's anxiety
[4:00]provoking.
[4:01]And so the research is coming out and it's suggesting that overuse can be really detrimental.
[4:08]I bet.
[4:09]I mean first of all, who has six hours after school?
[4:11]Well, so what they're doing is the six hours is measured by multitasking.
[4:17]So, I mean this is like a whole nother level, but kids are doing their homework and
[4:20]their phone is next to them and they are going in and out of homework in and out of activities.
[4:26]And so there are also studies looking at that at how divided their attention is.
[4:31]But that's where the six hours adds up.
[4:33]So it's 15 minutes, you know, on the bus it's between classes.
[4:37]I feel like for me it was 90210, like on my tiny little TV like once a week and otherwise
[4:43]I had like nothing and nothing to distract me back then.
[4:47]I like in your article though you offer some social media benefits and I feel like most
[4:51]people just glossed right over any benefit to this because the reports are mostly negative
[4:56]and you cite some benefits as building a deeper connection with friends and having a low
[5:00]stakes way to communicate with peers.
[5:02]Do you see any other benefits and do you think they're worse the costs?
[5:06]So there are definitely benefits.
[5:08]There are benefits, you know, the peer research and comments in this media have done these
[5:14]great reports.
[5:15]And what they find is that kids who are really sort of healthy socially in real life can
[5:24]manage better on social media.
[5:26]So these healthy connections that they have in real life, they can translate into social
[5:31]media, keeping in touch with friends if they need social support in the moment to complain
[5:35]about a parent or a loss or something like that I don't like.
[5:42]So but the real risk is for the kids who are struggling socially in real life and also for
[5:48]kids who overuse it.
[5:50]So there are benefits and there are benefits particularly for kids who feel like they don't
[5:55]have other people that can identify with at school if they're gay, if they're transgender,
[6:02]that these online communities can really offer really important support.
[6:06]So there are definite social benefits and my 12 year old son said I'd better find them
[6:11]when he found out I was writing this article.
[6:12]He said, please all of my friends' parents will read it and they will take it away
[6:16]from us and find them out so I did.
[6:20]The most concerning part of your article to me, at least as a mom, is that the study
[6:24]you say that found adolescents who were more into digital status seeking were more likely
[6:29]to engage in substance abuse and increase numbers of sexual partners a year later.
[6:34]Here's my question.
[6:35]Could it just be that the kids who were more into social media were already going to
[6:38]be those ones who were more into sex drugs and rock and roll later?
[6:41]I mean maybe the link isn't causal, it's just correlated.
[6:45]Yes, so it's not, so we don't know yet what they have found is a strong association.
[6:51]So the kids who are doing these status seeking behaviors in real life like drinking or smoking
[7:01]pot or smoking cigarettes, I don't even know if kids do that anymore vaping or whatever
[7:05]they do now, that they are also more likely to be the kids online seeking the status.
[7:12]So there is definitely what you're pointing out which is the link that if you're a kid
[7:17]who really cares about status, you're going to care in real life just as much as you
[7:21]do online.
[7:22]So maybe the social media isn't that bad, we don't know.
[7:27]So we don't know that it's causing it.
[7:29]One researcher when I asked them this question, so these, again, the study was in a strong
[7:34]association on this really cause.
[7:36]And the researcher I spoke with, I said to her, is there something about the idea with
[7:40]social media that kids who might not be popular can sit there and study what the popular
[7:46]kids are doing?
[7:47]And she said, yes, she said the popular kids are posting on their Instagram or their
[7:52]Instagram, which I didn't get into in the article, but their fake Instagrams, which
[7:57]is for their, you know, stuff that they don't allow their parents or colleges to look
[8:02]at, Instagram accounts and they're their smoking pot and they're their smoking cigarettes
[8:08]and they're having suggestive photos and that kids, it's sort of a way for kids to study
[8:14]that bad behavior and to want it and be elated to be popular.
[8:18]So that's a little scary and people are looking into that now.
[8:21]Okay.
[8:22]And this digital set status seeking, what do you exactly mean by that?
[8:25]So digital status seeking is kids who try to get more likes who work very hard to get good
[8:35]comments.
[8:36]So we're looking for these great follow versus follower ratios.
[8:43]So you want to have more followers than people that you follow.
[8:46]So all of these kind of status indicators that we see on Facebook and Instagram, those
[8:52]are the kids who are actively seeking it and some of the things that they do according
[8:56]to another study are deceptive.
[8:59]They buy likes.
[9:01]They grow, another study found that girls were literally tell friends, please go on and
[9:07]like what I just posted.
[9:10]And part of an adolescent girls relationship with their friends involves this nurturing
[9:18]their friends online as well.
[9:19]So commenting, if you look on an adolescence photo and you see the comments, many of the comments
[9:24]say the same thing.
[9:26]You're gorgeous.
[9:27]You look amazing that that's now part of being a good friend, is being a good friend
[9:32]on social media and publicly.
[9:34]Wow.
[9:35]It's a lot of work to keep that up.
[9:37]So I wasn't a kid.
[9:38]Me too.
[9:39]So it's a lot of work.
[9:40]What do you think about this for grownups?
[9:43]We all like I try to post and promote the podcast and whatever else.
[9:48]What do you think it has negative effects for us?
[9:50]No.
[9:51]I mean, well, I think it depends on us.
[9:53]I think using it for work is amazing and what you have to do today.
[9:59]And I think the way...
[10:00]You use it, so just like with the kids,
[10:01]the researchers say, the way kids use social media.
[10:05]So the conversation we should be having with our kids
[10:07]is maybe the conversation we should be having
[10:09]with ourselves too, which is, are we using it
[10:12]to connect with people, or are we using it
[10:14]to socially compare ourselves?
[10:16]And when we log on, are we feeling better,
[10:19]or are we feeling worse about ourselves and why?
[10:22]And so these are conversations that I'm having
[10:23]with my kids now, because I know that the question
[10:26]is gonna be, can I go on social media?
[10:28]And my son, who's about to turn 13,
[10:31]I did get him an Instagram account.
[10:35]And we have a lot of rules around it.
[10:38]He's only posted twice.
[10:40]And I've explained all the research
[10:42]and the downsides of it.
[10:43]And so we've brought up these actually
[10:45]really interesting conversations
[10:47]about social comparison and the need
[10:50]to feel validated and how this is really exacerbated
[10:54]in adolescence and why.
[10:56]It's because kids are sort of developing
[10:59]their self-worth and their identity now.
[11:03]And the way they do that is by socially comparing themselves
[11:06]and that this is really ripe
[11:08]and we need to have these conversations at home too.
[11:11]So if I may way back when I was in college,
[11:13]I was a psychology major.
[11:14]I did a whole study from my senior project
[11:16]on the application of social comparison theory
[11:19]to eating disorders.
[11:20]Yes. And it found, and I wonder if this applies now
[11:23]to eating disorders as well, I mean, how could it not?
[11:25]But the people who compared themselves more to others
[11:28]had a more had a higher likelihood
[11:30]of developing eating disorders and depression
[11:33]and all sorts of other things.
[11:34]Somehow like looking to others.
[11:35]And now with Instagram and all these accounts,
[11:38]it's must be, you know.
[11:40]Here's the thing though.
[11:41]So you're not only comparing yourself
[11:42]like you would in real life with somebody else,
[11:45]you're comparing somebody who used a computer program
[11:48]to thin their body out, to give themselves
[11:51]a digital nose job, to clear away all the acne.
[11:54]So not only are adolescents comparing themselves
[11:56]to their peers as they always have.
[11:58]Now they have to compare themselves to their airbrushed peers.
[12:03]So we used to be able to say, oh, just the models did that.
[12:06]And oh, right.
[12:06]And we could point it out in advertising
[12:08]and we could show our kids.
[12:09]But now, I mean, a friend of mine pulled me over
[12:12]when I was talking about this article and said,
[12:14]look at what my friend's, my daughter's friend is doing.
[12:18]She said, she looks nothing like this in real life.
[12:20]And her Instagram account is filled with airbrushed,
[12:23]stretched out.
[12:24]Like the body doesn't even look normal.
[12:26]It's so stretched out photos.
[12:28]And so that's what our kids are going home and looking at.
[12:30]Wow.
[12:31]And not only that, but then seeing their friends
[12:34]at parties are doing things without them too.
[12:36]It's hard for adults.
[12:38]I just, I came home one night from a really fun night out
[12:41]with my husband and friends.
[12:42]But then there was a picture on Instagram
[12:43]of like four other moms who I know all at dinner.
[12:46]And I was like, oh my gosh, I wasn't in my dinner.
[12:48]I couldn't even have gone.
[12:49]But I was all of a sudden feeling so left out.
[12:51]And I was like, this must be what
[12:53]kids are feeling all the time.
[12:54]It's not rational.
[12:55]But no, there it is anyway.
[12:57]And what's happening is when kids go on after school
[13:00]and they're seeing who went to Starbucks together
[13:03]or whatever it is, it's distracting them
[13:06]from being able to do their homework.
[13:07]I'm so, you know, it's their art.
[13:10]So one of the experts, I didn't have room
[13:12]in the article to put this in.
[13:13]But one of the experts I spoke to said,
[13:16]it's really important to teach kids when is a healthy time
[13:19]and when is not a healthy time to log in.
[13:21]So if you're taking a study break,
[13:23]logging in and seeing your friends doing fun things
[13:27]that you didn't do or a girl at a bikini
[13:29]that you know is going to set you off,
[13:31]instead go walk the dog, take a shower,
[13:33]do healthier things to reboot versus things
[13:36]that are going to drain you,
[13:37]like going on social media
[13:38]when you're a little bit vulnerable.
[13:40]That's a really good tip.
[13:41]What other tips can we do to help kids met?
[13:44]I mean, we have to have these conversations.
[13:46]We also have to keep in mind that one of the studies
[13:48]that I looked at found that kids who are active
[13:51]on social media at age 10 are more prone
[13:56]to having, you know, poor or well-being at age 15.
[14:01]And we have to remember there are rules
[14:03]when it comes to social media.
[14:04]You have to be 13.
[14:06]And this is the conversation I had with my kids.
[14:08]And I, you know, broke it.
[14:10]I let them go on a few months before you turn 13.
[14:13]With my daughter, I'm going to have the conversations
[14:15]with her, I'm going to hand her this article.
[14:17]And I'm going to say, here's what, you know,
[14:19]here's what the reason.
[14:20]It's not mommy, here's what the research is showing.
[14:22]This is why they're saying, wait until 13.
[14:24]And actually parents are trying to wait
[14:27]until kids are a lot older.
[14:28]But the conversations we should be having with our kids
[14:31]is how are you using social media?
[14:33]Are you using it to connect in a healthy way
[14:35]or are you using it for social comparison?
[14:37]And that's, you know, something you really have to limit,
[14:40]especially on places like social media.
[14:43]So in your article you had said
[14:45]that the people who spend more,
[14:48]the girls who spend more time on social media each 10
[14:51]end up having a higher likelihood
[14:52]of developing social and emotional issues by age 15.
[14:54]Yeah.
[14:55]Do you think those kids were predisposed
[14:57]to already having those issues when they got older?
[14:59]So I asked that to the researcher.
[15:01]And what she said was, we don't know.
[15:03]Okay.
[15:04]Because of the way they collected the data.
[15:05]But she said, girls who are 10 years old,
[15:08]logging on between one and three hours,
[15:11]those are a unique group of girls.
[15:14]So already, I mean, imagine you're 10 year old
[15:17]going online an hour to three hours a day on social media.
[15:21]That's extreme for a 10 year old.
[15:23]There are other things that 10 year old should be doing.
[15:25]And what I would say to parents
[15:26]and what I say to myself,
[15:28]when I think about our social media use
[15:32]and our electronic use is,
[15:34]what else could my kids be doing right now?
[15:37]So in the one hour that they're on social media
[15:40]or the three, what skill are they not learning?
[15:43]How are they not becoming the readers
[15:45]that I would love them to be?
[15:47]How are they not developing, you know,
[15:49]in real life relationships with friends
[15:52]or practicing an instrument
[15:54]or whatever it is,
[15:56]I think this extra time on electronics
[15:59]and social media, a good friend of mine said to me,
[16:01]when my kids were younger,
[16:02]she said, it will turn them into other people,
[16:06]different people than you want them to be.
[16:08]And so I keep that in mind.
[16:09]Whenever I want to take the easy way out
[16:11]and I'm tired and I want to stick up the front of a show,
[16:14]I remember her words,
[16:15]which is, you do that consistently,
[16:17]they turn into different people.
[16:20]I'm scared.
[16:21]I know, I feel so bad for my time myself.
[16:25]No, I think it's just important for us as parents
[16:27]to periodically revisit our rules around electronics.
[16:32]Oh, and one expert said to me, Rachel Simmons said,
[16:37]if your kids are okay with your social media policy,
[16:40]you're doing something wrong.
[16:42]So that's another thing that I keep in my head.
[16:44]If they're not resistant to my rules,
[16:47]then my rules aren't tight enough.
[16:48]Interesting.
[16:50]So it's a good litmus test.
[16:52]I actually, I hate to admit this.
[16:53]I tried letting my kids go on Instagram
[16:56]and getting accounts and after maybe two weeks,
[17:00]I shut it down.
[17:00]I was like, this is not good, this is a mistake.
[17:03]Yeah, forget it.
[17:04]And they responded very differently.
[17:05]I think that's the other thing
[17:06]with this whole debate over screen time,
[17:08]which I don't want to really get into,
[17:09]but I think it really depends on the kid.
[17:12]I think some kids are so susceptible
[17:15]to getting sucked into this vortex of screens
[17:17]where as other kids can look at a screen
[17:19]and then go off and go back to reading
[17:21]and other kids, it's really hard for them.
[17:23]It is.
[17:23]You don't necessarily know what kind of kid you have
[17:25]until they get exposed to it.
[17:26]So I think that's...
[17:28]That's right.
[17:29]And one of the experts said to me about social media,
[17:30]specifically, that adults have a hard time regulating
[17:34]themselves with their smartphones.
[17:36]Kids don't know how to regulate.
[17:38]So it's not like your kid should be doing a better job.
[17:41]It's your job as a parent at this age at 10, 11, 12,
[17:43]to regulate for them.
[17:45]They can't do it and adults sometimes can't do it.
[17:48]So just remember that.
[17:49]Yeah.
[17:50]And modeling too.
[17:51]Right.
[17:52]It's not being on our devices another way to help.
[17:54]Absolutely.
[17:57]So let's talk a little more about you and your career.
[17:59]Okay.
[18:00]So interested to how you went from college
[18:03]to here, basically, from your bio.
[18:06]So you started after college as an editorial assistant
[18:09]double day and now you're in award winning journalist
[18:11]and write for some of the best publications in the country.
[18:13]How did this happen?
[18:15]So I loved my time at double day.
[18:18]I love books.
[18:19]But I'd always had this love of news
[18:22]and I really like something that's fast paced
[18:24]and I love adrenaline and I love a little bit of stress
[18:27]in my life.
[18:28]So I switched over from books to 16 minutes
[18:31]and started at the bottom as an assistant
[18:34]to the story editor there.
[18:36]And it was through her that I learned what a story was.
[18:41]And I was lucky enough to be at 16 minutes
[18:44]when all of the greats were there.
[18:45]Not that they aren't all great today, they still are.
[18:47]But when it Bradley was there,
[18:50]I worked as one of Morley Saver's producers.
[18:54]Mike Wallace was there and it was Don Hewitt
[18:57]who was the founder, I think you might know him,
[19:00]of 16 minutes and sort of the news magazine format.
[19:04]And so I worked my way from the bottom
[19:07]and I used to go in at 7 a.m.
[19:11]It was the only one, 16 minutes the producers work late
[19:14]into the night but don't show up at 7 a.m.
[19:17]And I would read 30 to 40 local newspapers
[19:23]from around the country and look for stories.
[19:25]And so reading for hours every day for years
[19:29]helped me sort of develop into a journalist.
[19:33]And I didn't go to journalism school.
[19:35]Actually, most people at 16 minutes don't go
[19:36]to journalism school.
[19:39]But I was able to just kind of learn at the foot
[19:43]of Morley Saver who were the nay,
[19:46]where do you know that?
[19:47]I don't know.
[19:49]He was a giant.
[19:50]So he thought I felt like at his feet.
[19:53]But he taught me how to write for TV
[19:57]and as a journalist he was an incredible writer.
[20:00]Oh my gosh, I would go in there, and he would work in one of those old typewriters, and
[20:07]he would sit there, smoke a cigarette, look out the window, illegally smoke a cigarette
[20:11]because you weren't allowed to smoke in the building.
[20:14]And would hammer out the most vivid prose, and he was a risk taker when it came to writing,
[20:22]and he taught me how to be a risk taker too.
[20:24]That way.
[20:25]You had mentioned earlier that the importance of knowing your audience when you're writing.
[20:28]Did you learn that there?
[20:29]I learned that there, so Don Hewitt used to walk down the hall, and when somebody
[20:35]would pitch a story or write a script, he would say, I don't know, he would have a name
[20:41]of someone like in Kansas.
[20:43]Dorothy in Kansas is saying, what the heck are they saying on 60 Minutes?
[20:48]He said, you need to know what your audience knows who they are, and what 60 Minutes
[20:54]does so beautifully is that they know that their audience might not know about the subject
[20:59]before they are introduced to it on Sunday nights, but they never dumb it down.
[21:04]So they make it truly accessible, but in a way that assumes you're smart.
[21:10]And I just, that is a really delicate balance that I learned from them.
[21:14]I think it's the exact way to write.
[21:17]Assume that people don't know it, but assume they're smarter.
[21:20]So everything that goes on air is pre-written, they don't just...
[21:24]Oh yeah.
[21:26]So the process of 60 Minutes is incredible.
[21:28]I mean, they allow for weeks and months and several months of investigation, and the questions
[21:36]are written and the corresponding gets involved and rewrites them into their voice, and
[21:40]then the scripts are written and the corresponding, again, digs in and makes the script
[21:45]even better, and then they're screened by a fresh set of eyes, the executive producer
[21:50]and other senior producers, and you get feedback there from someone who is never, who
[21:55]didn't do any of the interviews and didn't know anything.
[21:57]And then when it makes 60 Minutes unique, I think, maybe not.
[22:00]It was the only news magazine show I worked for, is that there's also someone fact-checking
[22:04]everything that's in the script and reading every interview and making sure that what
[22:08]you're putting on air is exactly what that person intended.
[22:12]And so I also learned, as a journalist, how to fact-check and assume nothing.
[22:17]And you know what it also does?
[22:18]It makes me assume nothing about what I know.
[22:20]So everything I know, I fact-check myself.
[22:22]I'm like, really?
[22:23]Is that assumption true and how did I come to it?
[22:26]And so anyway, it taught me really how to be a journalist.
[22:29]It was incredible, almost 10 years I was there.
[22:32]And then you eventually, now you're this TV commentator.
[22:36]You go on to all these shows and, you know, the resident expert did starting at 60 Minutes
[22:42]or what you're appetite for that on-air role.
[22:44]I never thought about it.
[22:45]Honestly, I had, I love writing, and so that's sort of my passion.
[22:49]And then I went on, actually went on the today show for an article I wrote on Real Simple
[22:54]and some of the senior producers at 60 Minutes who knew me called me in and said, you're
[22:59]really CBS.
[23:00]Come on here next time.
[23:01]And so, you know, I'm lucky enough to go on around some of my articles.
[23:06]And I love going on TV.
[23:09]It exercises a totally different part of the brain than writing does.
[23:13]It is thrilling and exciting.
[23:17]And I don't know.
[23:18]What are the only times I don't think where my kids are and what they're doing.
[23:22]You're in the arena and you could be eaten by the lions.
[23:26]And so you're really on your game and it's exciting and fun.
[23:29]Anyway.
[23:30]But you always seem just so calm, cool, and collected, like no different than just sitting
[23:34]here chatting with me.
[23:35]Like, you seem like you have it, you just nail it all the time.
[23:38]How do I do that?
[23:39]How do I do it?
[23:40]Because I prepare a lot.
[23:41]I prepare and I prepare and I know for myself what I need my level of comfort.
[23:46]And so, you know, I might seem, and actually when I go on here, I am, you know, I'm
[23:51]at a level where I feel comfortable talking about it, but I prepare a lot in advance.
[23:56]I am an over-prepared person.
[23:58]Do you memorize your answers?
[23:59]How do you know?
[24:00]No.
[24:01]My father-in-law, who is Chris Wallace on Fox, said to me, do not over because he knows
[24:07]my propensity to over-prepared.
[24:09]And his advice to me was prepare enough, but don't over-prepared because then you're
[24:14]not authentic.
[24:15]And so I know exactly how much I have to prep and then I step away from it, which makes
[24:22]you, you know, you don't want to seem prepared.
[24:26]And at CBS, you can never be prepared because Gayle King always asks you a question.
[24:30]You don't understand.
[24:31]That's good.
[24:32]So.
[24:33]How often do you think you're on air now?
[24:35]Not do you think.
[24:36]It's not as often lately, I've been really focused on a lot more of my writing.
[24:41]So it goes and fits and starts, you know, a year ago, I was on a lot more.
[24:47]And then what happens is I, you're sort of focused on that and so it takes away from
[24:50]the writing.
[24:51]So for me, it's been a hard balance to figure out because I also have three young kids
[24:57]at home.
[24:58]And I work from home, so I realize how precious time is.
[25:03]And so for the last several months, I've really focused on the writing and I've given
[25:08]myself almost a deadline a week, so that's been taking up a lot of my time.
[25:13]Well, one hour to go a week, but yeah, I've been working that way.
[25:16]They don't always come out one a week, really, right then.
[25:18]Yeah, so yeah, I'm up to it.
[25:22]It's up to the editors when they most of my things are not pegged to something timely.
[25:27]Yeah.
[25:28]So I'm more than ever green.
[25:29]So when they need the space, they come to me.
[25:31]And how did you break into writing for these amazing, so well, I think my 60 minutes training
[25:38]gave me their credentials, but I will say that it's the women in my life who brought
[25:43]me up.
[25:44]I took time off, took seven years when my kids were young, we were living in London and
[25:48]then we moved back and I really missed it.
[25:51]I knew I couldn't go back to 60 minutes with the way my husband works in his travel,
[25:56]but I wanted to be a journalist and I was talking with a friend of mine who's a senior
[26:00]producer at 60 minutes.
[26:01]And she said, okay, the next time we meet for dinner, which is once a month we go out,
[26:07]and he said, I want you to come up with three story ideas and so I did that and then
[26:10]a month later she said, okay, now I want you to outline one and bring a pitch the next
[26:14]time we meet.
[26:15]And so she made me accountable and she's one of my best friends and she made me accountable
[26:18]to it.
[26:19]And then when I was ready, when I had this sort of treasure chest of ideas, I reached out
[26:26]to the women in my life who didn't stop working and were now editors and chiefs of magazines,
[26:32]senior editors at newspapers and I said, I just want to go for coffee and you tell me
[26:37]if these are dumb ideas.
[26:38]And one of the editors I met with was my editor at the Wall Street Journal and I said,
[26:43]okay, be honest, please, I have to run these by you and she liked them.
[26:48]And I mean, they were crazy ideas.
[26:49]My first idea, one of my first ideas for her was about how my husband and I give each
[26:54]other year-end reviews and so she was like, oh my god, I love it.
[26:58]And so anyway, she did really still do that.
[27:01]Yeah, we do it.
[27:02]We do it like on New Year's Eve or you know, for together.
[27:05]But it's like fun and casual and lighthearted.
[27:09]And anyway, it was the women in my life.
[27:11]They lifted me up and they said, let's go.
[27:13]You're ready to come back.
[27:14]And so it's so nice.
[27:16]It is nice.
[27:17]And I think it's a story that's not to hold enough.
[27:19]That women are not as competitive as they want us, you know, that other people want us
[27:24]to believe that that's, I think that's more of a social construct than it is reality.
[27:30]Yeah, I sometimes look around.
[27:32]I'm like, I can't believe how much people I started out with have achieved when they
[27:36]don't stop.
[27:37]Yes.
[27:38]Right?
[27:39]It's incredible.
[27:40]It is amazing.
[27:42]And it is thrilling to say, and I'm so happy for my daughter to see it.
[27:46]I always point out we have a friend in common of that.
[27:50]And I always make sure there's a doctor in front of her name because she is an MD.
[27:56]And I want my kids to see women in these various roles.
[27:59]And I just, I'm sorry, and she was like, I can't believe you're doing all this right
[28:03]and stuff.
[28:04]I was like, are you kidding?
[28:05]You're a doctor.
[28:06]Like, I'm doing nothing.
[28:07]You are seeming lies and helping others and all this stuff.
[28:10]Like, come on.
[28:12]No, it is great to have great role models, especially in the face of, you know, these superficial,
[28:18]you know, the superficial traps on social media, like that's really nothing.
[28:21]There's no steps.
[28:22]Like, giving kids people to actually look up to is a way more powerful, powerful, I
[28:29]would think.
[28:30]But so you had mentioned a couple of your original story, how do you come up with your
[28:35]other story ideas?
[28:36]Are they from life?
[28:37]Are they?
[28:38]So they're from life.
[28:39]They're from friends.
[28:40]I'm a big listener.
[28:41]And so, like, a friend of mine was struggling with, you know, that she felt like she had
[28:48]a favorite child and she was feeling guilty about it.
[28:50]And so I started looking into it for her.
[28:53]And then I was like, oh wow, like something like 70 or 80% of parents have a favorite
[28:57]child.
[28:58]And what's that about?
[28:59]And what does that mean?
[29:00]And what's the research on it?
[29:01]And what happens to the other children?
[29:02]And what happens to that favorite child?
[29:03]And so anyway, these ideas sort of start with a spark or another idea I had was about
[29:07]small talk.
[29:09]And because I write at home all day, I was like missing small talk in my life, even though
[29:12]I don't really love small talk.
[29:14]And I was like talking a lot to like the guy who was serving my coffee.
[29:16]And I was like, why am I being so needy?
[29:20]So I looked into what are the benefits?
[29:23]What are we missing when we don't engage in small talk?
[29:26]So anyway, these are things that I struggle with my friend struggle with.
[29:29]And a lot of them are sort of notes to myself.
[29:32]Do you have other ones coming out sooner than your repertoire that you haven't been
[29:37]scheduled yet?
[29:38]Yeah.
[29:39]Yeah.
[29:40]When I leave here, I'm going back to research for the Washington Post, the surprising
[29:45]benefits of week ties that we look a lot.
[29:48]You know, a lot of research focuses on the importance of our family and close friends
[29:52]in helping us to be psychologically healthy.
[29:55]But there's also a benefit to keeping sort of a diverse.
[30:00]friendship portfolio and maintaining weak ties. And so that's what I'm looking into now.
[30:04]I live when people put friendships into tennis terms and I guess it's exactly diversified.
[30:09]I have never survived. Worked all the way out. Okay, great. Is there a publication you've
[30:15]always wanted to write for but haven't? So the Atlantic monthly. So I haven't written for them.
[30:21]I love their work, but it overlaps a lot with my Wall Street Journal work and I
[30:27]love writing for them. So I always pitch them first. But Atlantic monthly is definitely one
[30:32]on my list. And going forward, are you looking more to do more writing as you had minted or more
[30:38]TV reporting or writing a book? What do you have in the future? So I have an agent at CIA and so
[30:44]we're exploring TV stuff and radio stuff and I have a book agent even though I don't have a book.
[30:51]And so I'm always looking at these things. I realize how precious time is. So I really want to be
[30:58]careful in what I sign up for. So I'm taking my time before I dive into anything.
[31:04]And how do you go about getting in all these agents? What is that? Well, so I wrote an article for
[31:09]the Wall Street Journal a couple of years ago on oh game theory and parenting using game theory.
[31:16]And so an agent approached me and she happens to be at CIA as well. And CAA came about
[31:26]through a mutual connection. I met with them and they said they'd love to represent me and so
[31:30]that's how it came about. Yeah, it's nice. It's nice when you sort of figure out what it is that
[31:37]you love. I mean, the way I got into the writing, specifically these kinds of articles,
[31:41]is that I really am a self-help junkie. And this is the kind of stuff I want to know about.
[31:47]And so I think if you figure out what it is and I've always loved self-help books and
[31:52]psychology, even though it was an English major, I think if you figure out and can tap into something
[31:56]that you kind of want to be doing anyway and find a way to get paid to do it. I mean, I know
[32:02]everybody gives that advice. But if you kind of dig down and you figure out what are the things
[32:07]that would actually benefit me today, like all this stuff that I write about parenting is helping
[32:12]my three kids or totally damaging them in a social experiment in my own, but whatever, I'm doing my
[32:17]best. I think if you could find that little spark that gets your energy flowing and that you could
[32:24]devote and you don't mind stealing that time away from your family to do it. And I don't. I don't
[32:30]have guilt about that. Then that's something that's sustainable. Do you have any other tips for
[32:36]aspiring managers? To read. To read as much as you can and consider that part of your job
[32:43]as a writer. That part of your job is to read X number of minutes or hours a day. There are
[32:50]definitely writers that I admire and I follow and I try to read everything they write. And I
[32:56]look at how they structure an article, how they approach a study. And now after writing for five
[33:02]years, I also am looking at the pieces that are missing from their articles and why they choose.
[33:08]That's the biggest struggle for me as a writer is like for this article on teenage social media.
[33:14]It was a thousand word article and I think I wrote three or four thousand words. So for me,
[33:19]it's what I'm, the big struggle is what I have to leave out. And I think as you mature as a writer,
[33:25]that becomes a bigger, a bigger importance. What am I not putting in here for my audience?
[33:34]I really, I like to help my audience. And the feedback is so good that it's helpful to them.
[33:39]That's what inspires me to get up at 4 a.m. which I often do to write. Oh my gosh. That's
[33:43]when you do it. That's when I do it. Not when they're in school. So I do do it when they're in
[33:47]school, but I often find that there are a lot of commitments. And so my time that I know is just my
[33:55]own is 4 a.m. No. Yeah. 4 to about 7.15. I would say the last three weeks, I've been up almost
[34:05]every morning, definitely before 5. But when I have a pressing deadline is 4 a.m. and I work,
[34:10]I am my freshest. I am my least critical about my writing at that hour. I am open to new ideas.
[34:17]And what I find, the other reason that I find this is that I've been sort of watching myself as a
[34:23]a social experiment on what drains me and phone calls and you know the little things in my life
[34:31]that I hate doing like finding shoes on zappos for my kids and not knowing their size and all
[34:36]of these things. It drains me a little bit of my productivity and it takes away the space in my
[34:43]brain and at 4 a.m. none of those things matter. It's just me for 3 hours on the page. I love it.
[34:50]Yeah. It's my gift to myself. What time do you go to bed? Well those weeks I go to bed really early.
[34:55]So like how early? Like 9. Okay. With my 12 year old, he lights out at 8.30 and I
[35:04]I read for like a half hour and then I go to bed like 9.9.30. I have to when I get up before.
[35:09]That's some serious discipline there. Well you know I am also a morning person. So I kind of
[35:15]of left. Yeah. But a lot of my friends write at night but by then I am so drained by the day
[35:21]that I'm not as productive. If I really 3 hours that early is like 6 hours in the day.
[35:28]Wow. That's great to have that self awareness and then to implement it like that.
[35:31]Yeah. I wrote an article on Glamor about it. I'm sorry. No, no, no years ago. Okay.
[35:36]And ever since then I've been figuring because you need to know for yourself what is your productive
[35:41]and what dreams you from it. And so literally this book. I know I need to listen to that podcast.
[35:47]This Charles Dewhig podcast that I just posted smarter, faster, better is all about productivity
[35:52]and Charles was saying even that he picks 20 emails to respond to and that's about it.
[35:56]Like he just otherwise that would be the whole thing. See that's a very male thing. As a woman
[36:00]I feel like I have to respond to. I know about it. I was thinking about it. I was like how many
[36:03]do you have? I know. That's not an option. But just thinking about your productivity and
[36:10]such an analytical way. Now you're the second person and like a week who said this like
[36:14]maybe this is the key to success here. For me it is. For me it's made me extremely productive.
[36:19]But I'm really careful and I carve it out and I'm protective of it. And I don't make excuses
[36:25]for when I need to really just disconnect. But then I do respond to everybody's email at night.
[36:32]I'm tired. So anyway if the emails aren't cohesive, you know coherent it's because I'm really tired.
[36:36]That's like four. I have to say that you're like all of these women all over and not just
[36:40]women. Like all over the city and their apartments like emailing each other.
[36:44]It's been thick and blue enough in the sky. Like none of us making any sense. But anyway.
[36:50]Well thank you so much. This has really been, I opening for me and motivating and exciting.
[36:56]I can't wait to see where your career takes you next. Me too. Thanks, it was. Thanks, Jan. You too.
[37:00]Okay, thank you. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to moms. Don't have time to read books. Please
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